OpenXcom Forum
OpenXcom => Suggestions => Topic started by: Daiky on February 15, 2011, 12:45:39 pm
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I always found that the conventional weapons (pistol, grenade, rifle, auto-cannon, heavy cannon, rocket launcher, stun rod, grenade, proximity grenade) became obsolete too fast in the game. It just feels more rewarding to me to kill an alien with my own technology rather than theirs.
So I was thinking about weapon upgrades, it's a system used in a lot of RTS games. Probably because it is not so hard to implement: the item graphics stay exactly the same, only some of the item stats are better than the normal item.
Visually it can be sufficient to add just a little icon on the weapon graphic to indicate this is an enhanced version of an item. The name can have a certain prefix like "Enhanced".
Of course these upgrades should be researched, preferably at some point in the tree that is on the same level of alien weapons. For example: you have the option to research plasma rifles or to research a rifle upgrade which makes the conventional rifle a nice alternative for the plasma rifle.
The upgrades are then manufactured using the base weapon as material (your conventional weapons can be recycled) + alien materials.
Upgrades can increase damage, lower time unit cost, increase accuracy or maybe add some new side-effects or firing modes.
And to take it even further you have upgrades to ammo too...
Examples:
- the stun-gas hi explosive pack - set timer high enough to evacuate the area
- armour piercing rifle ammo - don't even try unloading a rifle on a sectopod without this upgrade
- rocket launcher with guided rockets - almost like the blaster launcher, but less destructive
- auto-cannon autoshot fires 6 rounds instead of 3 - from ta-ta-ta to tatatatatata
- auto-cannon ammo rounds with twice the number of bullets in it - let it rain bullets
- heavy cannon that acts as a high power launcher for ANY grenade that will detonate/activate on impact
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I agree with you, adding that I find also the Laser Weapons became obsolete too quickly; at the easiest difficulty you can completely skip them and go directly to plasma weapons.
In many other UFO clones and RTS games there is the concept of weapon attachments, such as scopes, silencers, underbarrel and so on.
Using the laser and plasma technology one could improve the human weapons in parallel than research new weapons, leaving to the player the choice. For example laser scopes for common weapons, beam heaters and cooler for lasers, underbarrel plasma throwers for cannos.
A nice idea can be the research of new type of ammos, such as Elerium-filled bullets, Elerium enhanced laser weapons, anti-alien toxis (non lethal to humans) and so on without changing too much the game (as you said, just adding some cool adjective to weapons description, or changing the color palette).
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What about artefacts? ;D
"Deadly Plasma Rifle of Thunders"?
Ok, ok, i'm joking of course :P Such weapon upgrades would be nice, but wouln't it bring too many weapons with similar stats to game? Currently, there is simple progress - you know that plasma is better. If normal rifle could be upgraded, what will be better? Upgraded normal rifle or plasma rifle?
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There are many different problems and opportunities in this field:
Simplicity
As michal mentioned, the simplicity or elimination of choice in the core game could very well come from not wanting to burden the player and make it clear which way to go to win the game. One can only speculate whether at the time of development, the game was targeted less at hardcore gamers and more at "casual" ones (if there were such a thing at the time...). Most fans today are hardcore strategic and tactical aficionados who like the challenge of figuring out which weapon is best and under what circumstances it is best used. Shortly put: Core gameplay might benefit from sticking with the original formula to draw in and entertain new players, while extensions/modifications could be the way to goto keep the more hardcore fanbase challenged in the long run.
New feature vs. numerical upgrade:
With weapon development/upgrading you often have two possibilities: Add new feature (fx. toxic gas grenade) or make more powerful (increase range, power, ammo etc.). New features are more interesting to hardcore players because they open up the space of possibilities by creating more complexity which motivates the development of more advanced tactics among players. This is a good thing because many are motivated by the exploration of possibilities in play and experiences of success once a more efficient tactic has been identified. However, new features are also usually much more costly to implement than "powerups".
Balancing
When changing the rules of a game, you always have to keep the balance in mind - otherwise the flow of the game is likely to be changed significantly (of course this can be a positive thing, if that was what motivated the change in the first place). Apart from being more costly than upgrades, new features are also notoriously more difficult to balance, because they interact with existing features in new and unexpected ways. Hence a new type of weapon may turn out to be a super-weapon even though it wasn't meant to be, because fx. the AI was not prepared for its impact on tactics in the game.
These points are not meant to criticize changes to the game - on the contrary I am looking very much forward to modding a bit myself. I am just making the point that it takes a fair bit of caution not to ruin the play-value of a game with new stuff! Also, keep in mind that there are probably more things to be aware of than what I came up with off the top of my head...
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Don't be afraid bramcor, I'm talking about the possibility to add this in as a modding possibility for you (the user/modder), so certainly not the n00bs :p
My main argument actually was: have the option of modding in upgrades on standard items - the stun gas grenade is a good example - without the need to create new graphics.
This would for example result in a modified game that makes more use of the conventional weapons, in a different, more powerful form, instead of a game where you only see them for 2 or 3 missions and then totally disappear from the game.
Balancing is up to the user/modder.
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I know you weren't talking about changing the default game form - your ideas just got me thinking about what one need to keep in mind to ensure a "good" mod ;)
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Outch, just imagine the micman if a MOD were to double, triple, quadruple the available weaponry sets. Heck can you predict the height of the scrollbar in the usual SELL/BUY items screen?
As an option and within a perfectly wise and suitable MOD -- i guess anyone would somehow enjoy such complexity.
But it's not the soup, it's the bowl! ;)
If the OX engine can handle it i don't see why gameplay shouldn't benefit from such additional features. A couple of ruleset alterations, a few gimmicks here and there and you're good to go.
Be warned however, your regular 30+/- minutes Base Invasion might last twice as much and with high odds of mystery results.
Fun? Depends.
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For me, the auto-cannon, heavy explosives were still useful throughout the whole game. I don't believe they are obsolete.
I also believe the laser weapons are upgrades to the rifle, pistol and heavy cannon.
In that sense, and also because of the big impact on the balance of the game, I don't think any should be changed.
However, if it were up to me, I'd love these ideas! So here are some of my ideas.
1. Elerium ammo for rifles, pistols.
2. Yes, the speed of the auto-cannon is ridiculous. But maybe 4 shots instead of 6.
3. Proximities should be attached to heavy explosives and alien grenades.
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2. Yes, the speed of the auto-cannon is ridiculous. But maybe 4 shots instead of 6.
Actually the speed of the auto-cannon was a result of the technical limit of not more than 1 bullet that can be flying at the same time.
The next bullet could only be fired when the previous one hit something (or went out of the map).
So, if you did an autoshot to something on a tile next to you, the autoshot fired the shots really fast.
If you did an autoshot in an area with no obstructions, the autoshot fired the shots really slow.
I'm going to make sure that openxcom does not have this limit, so there can be multiple bullets flying around the map.
But by default -as always- I will keep the oldskool behaviour.
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Actually the speed of the auto-cannon was a result of the technical limit of not more than 1 bullet that can be flying at the same time.
The next bullet could only be fired when the previous one hit something (or went out of the map).
I think of this as more of a design decision to ensure that the player knows what he has hit, by having the screen follow each shot until it "terminates". Only then can you fire another shot and have the screen follow that. Whether this is an absolutely critical feature for "good" tactical gameplay I am not sure though...
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Actually the speed of the auto-cannon was a result of the technical limit of not more than 1 bullet that can be flying at the same time.
The next bullet could only be fired when the previous one hit something (or went out of the map).
I think of this as more of a design decision to ensure that the player knows what he has hit, by having the screen follow each shot until it "terminates". Only then can you fire another shot and have the screen follow that. Whether this is an absolutely critical feature for "good" tactical gameplay I am not sure though...
Well, the way I was going to implement it, it IS a technical limit: there always can be just one action on the battlescape at a time: whether it is an explosion busy with exploding, a soldier walking, a ufo door opening or a bullet flying. Only when the previous action has finished, the next one can start.
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Actually the speed of the auto-cannon was a result of the technical limit of not more than 1 bullet that can be flying at the same time.
The next bullet could only be fired when the previous one hit something (or went out of the map).
I think of this as more of a design decision to ensure that the player knows what he has hit, by having the screen follow each shot until it "terminates". Only then can you fire another shot and have the screen follow that. Whether this is an absolutely critical feature for "good" tactical gameplay I am not sure though...
Well, the way I was going to implement it, it IS a technical limit: there always can be just one action on the battlescape at a time: whether it is an explosion busy with exploding, a soldier walking, a ufo door opening or a bullet flying. Only when the previous action has finished, the next one can start.
Oh, so it is also related to fx. fire and smoke animations "stalling" while walking around or firing bullets?
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Actually the speed of the auto-cannon was a result of the technical limit of not more than 1 bullet that can be flying at the same time.
The next bullet could only be fired when the previous one hit something (or went out of the map).
So, if you did an autoshot to something on a tile next to you, the autoshot fired the shots really fast.
If you did an autoshot in an area with no obstructions, the autoshot fired the shots really slow.
I'm going to make sure that openxcom does not have this limit, so there can be multiple bullets flying around the map.
But by default -as always- I will keep the oldskool behaviour.
I think the problem with firing multiple shots simultaneously is logistical issues. With single shots, the results are simple and predictable. With multiple, what happens when multiple shots hit the same target simultaneously, or affect each other's path, or multiple explosions cross-over, or etc.
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I always found that the conventional weapons (pistol, grenade, rifle, auto-cannon, heavy cannon, rocket launcher, stun rod, grenade, proximity grenade) became obsolete too fast in the game. It just feels more rewarding to me to kill an alien with my own technology rather than theirs.
You're not the only one!
How about this fairly basic upgrade idea:
ALIEN ALLOYS:
--->Improved Pistol/Rifle/HC/AC/Rocket Launcher
--->Improved Pistol/Rifle/HC/AC armor piercing ammo
--->Improved Skyranger
--->Improved Interceptor
--->Improved HWPs
Basically, humanity uses alien alloys to upgrade it's starting fleet.
WEAPONS: They get a little bit lighter, and have better accuracy and lower TU cost due to them being lighter and easier to handle.
AIRCRAFT: A bit more durable and longer ranged; due to the alien alloys allowing for dry weight reduction, increasing the fuel fraction, and the alien alloys are a bit more durable than aluminum.
HWPs: Bit more durable, due to alien alloys.
Improved Armor Piercing Ammo: Due to alien alloys being better; you can have improved bullets that punch harder.
Also, make autopsying and capturing aliens for research a bit more important.
There are five primary alien races (Sectoid/Floater/Snakemen/Muton/Etheral) in the game, plus their terrorist units, for 10 aliens in the game.
When you've autopsied about maybe 30% of the aliens in the game, you get access to improved hollowpoint ammunition that's brought about by research from firing countless bullets into alien corpses.
40% of live aliens researched let you get specialized chemical weapons that harm only aliens -- you can use recolored smoke particles for this. Useful for terror sites.
Likewise, you could also tie alien research (dead and live) into other areas, like the poor motion detector and proximity grenade.
Motion Detector/Prox Grenade Mk I: As we have them in XCOM now. Unable to differentate between civilians/aliens. Blow up anyone who passes nearby.
Motion Detector/Prox Grenade Mk II: We've videotaped and analyzed the motion, gait, IR signature, etc of aliens that we have captured; so we now offer you this new model. It can tell you if that's a human or alien. Likewise, the prox grenade shouldn't blow up a human. Most of the time....(error rate of 50% or so).
Motion Detector/Prox Grenade Mk III: Accuracy has improved, and we can now tell what type of alien we detected. Grenades can be set to a specific species of alien, so you can have prox grenades target chyssalids only.
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Another idea I had just now was to give humanity a ranged stun weapon.
It was kind of dumb that all we had was a cattle prod literally starting out; and we had to reverse engineer SMALL LAUNCHER to get the capability to stun from a distance.
BZ Gas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate) --In small doses, this makes you stupid, literally. You take your clothes off and mumble incoherently. At higher doses, you get knocked unconscious.
Kolokol-1 Agent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolokol-1) -- Kolokol-1 takes effect within one to three seconds, rendering the subject unconscious for two to six hours. Kills a certain amount of people anyway.
So how about this for human ranged stun weapons:
* Proximity Gas Grenade. (there were actually special VX Nerve Gas landmines made in the Cold War and stockpiled).
* Gas Grenade.
* Heavy Cannon -- Reworked to to be conceptually like a 40mm grenade launcher. Very inaccurate, due to the need for low recoil as it's hand held. But since it's now a 40mm grenade launcher, you could have it fire a whole range of payload grenades:
--Explosive Grenades
--Proximity Grenades
--Gas Grenades
--Bean Bag Rounds (Ow, what just hit me????)
--Conventional Flare Grenade (a lot more light than electro flare, but can set something on fire)
--Electro-Flare Grenade (less light than electroflare, but won't set an area on fire)
The gas weapons that humanity has at the start of the game are a mix of BZ and Kolokol-1 in effects.
Aliens have about say 15-20% chance of being affected by it during each game turn. Humans, 90%.
You roll to see if the unit is affected, then proceed to the random choice table:
*Unit becomes disoriented. They walk off into a random nonsensical direction. They drop their equipment at random.
*Unit takes stun damage.
*Unit takes health damage.
So basically, the aliens still retain a solid advantage with their Small Launchers, as they inflict massive stun damage in one turn; and are 100% safe.
Human ranged stun (at least in the early game) should be unreliable and dangerous.
Mutons could be totally unaffected by early human gas grenades.
You could find an Ethereal commander and try to stun him with a gas grenade, only to find that he had an adverse reaction to the BZ/Kolokol-1 and died. Likewise, you could toss a gas grenade into a convience store to knock out some sectoids, and instead end up killing a bunch of civilians.
Whoops.
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Rework the Rocket Launcher -- the UFOPedia says:
The rocket launcher is a laser guided system which can fire three different sizes of missile.
Use the code for the blaster launcher with the rocket launcher with some modifications and the following limitations:
* You get only two waypoints.
* The waypoints must be within the soldier's line of sight.
* Passing through smoke makes the rocket go 'dumb' and nose to the ground.
* You cannot make sudden and sharp vector changes with the waypoints (90 degree turn in one square).
With this, the Aliens still retain the upper hand. They have a 200~ damage weapon that can fire through smoke; go up stairs, attack targets from beyond the soldier's LOS, and with unlimited waypoints.
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I like the idea of differently colored smoke for different types of smoke, because it could possibly be done with palette shifting :)
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Since we're in the 'lets change significant gameplay parts', why not rework the Heavy X's in the game?
Right now, Heavy Lasers are pretty much useless; and the Heavy Plasma is UberGod, and there's the amusing image of sectoids carrying a Heavy Plasma that's half their height!
Some rough ideas I had to fix this in random order:
1.) Rework the Strength stats.
Currently they are:
Base Strength Stat Range (Median)
X-COM Rookies: 20-40 (30)
Sectoids: 30-32 (31)
Floater: 40-51 (46)
Snakeman: 47-50 (49)
Muton: 70-75 (73)
Ethereal: 48-52 (50)
Some of it makes sense, like the Mutons. Others don't make sense.
Why should Sectoids, who are little weak skinny midgets; have a minimum strength of 30, when X-COM rookies have a minimum strength of 20?
The weakest X-COM rookie should be able to pick up a sectoid and drop kick them into the next state without too much trouble.
I would suggest shaving the stats downward for all the alien races by about 10~ points; with sectoids being between 14-20 and lowering the STRENGTH cap for humans to about maybe 57 or so.
Humans should never be able to come close to matching mutons in Strength, no matter how much you exercise them.
2A.) Set minimum strength requirements to equip weapons. Use this to 'price' certain things out of the reach of various X-COM personnel or aliens unless they meet strength standards. You won't see sectoids with heavy plasmas; and you will see some variation in the other races; with most aliens having plasma rifles, and the outliers having heavy plasmas. Of course, Mutons would be 100% heavy plasma. That's what makes them so deadly.
2B). Increase the armor of cyberdiscs and sectopods, along with the human HWPs so that you need a heavy weapon like rocket launcher, heavy laser, heavy plasma, etc to reliably damage them. It gives you a reason to develop the heavy weapons or to have someone lugging them around. Yes, you can eventually kill a cyberdisk/sectopod/HWP with a plasma rifle or laser rifle; but it will take many many hits. A heavy weapon can kill it much easier.
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there's the amusing image of sectoids carrying a Heavy Plasma that's half their height!
I had a thought a while back about suggesting that a soldier's strength play a greater role in the game (item limit by weight, soldiers with low strength can't carry heavy weapons, soldiers with moderate strength can hold more than one weapon, strong soldiers could hold more than one weapon, with the option of one of those weapons being a heavy weapon). Weapon upgrades could be incorporated into this as well; ie: the 'using alien alloys to improve the starting fleet' suggestion from a while back would result in lighter initial weapons?
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The ideas are getting wild, lol.
The only thing likely welcomed by most players so far is a las cannon hovertank. I'm sure all of you have had this idea crossed your mind as it makes alot more sense than the tank/las after you get the hover tech.
And this should NOT be in a mod.
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One thing I always thought weird about the original XCom was that human researchers could reproduce alien technology so easily. Yeah, you hardly ever need to build Plasma rifles or their clips if you scavenged them from aliens, but you could build them, along with pretty much everything else.
As a mod (not the vanilla game! Too much of a change from the old version) how about when you research technology you can use it, and maybe build a human VERSION of the item, but not duplicate alien hardware. For example for a plasma pistol clip researched you could build clips for it with advanced human technology, but they'd be clunkier (maybe 2x2 squares big and twice as heavy) and have only half the shots. If you are REALLY short on one type of ammo it might be useful. For plasma weapons you might only be able to build plasma cutters for close combat only, but powerful.
For UFOs, when you research 'UFO Power Source' you can use their units in vessels that XCom build, or build a simpler nuclear powered version. IE half the fuel range and slightly slower (though still faster than the stock interceptor). When you research 'Improved interceptor' you'd get both the flying saucer version (uses all alien components) or something that looks like a half breed between the saucer and the interceptor (and uses all human built components). That alone would be useful if you weren't reliant on Elerium for fueling!
For Flying Suits it uses NTG (Nuclear Thermal Generator) to power flight engines (of some sort. Ducted fans?) but can only go 1 level above the ground, or 1 level above a roof, etc. It also would have slightly less armour. Same lower armour for human Power armour. Use Human 'Nuclear Power Source' to build instead of 'UFO Power Source'.
Not sure about Alien Alloys. Should they still be buildable? If a piece of tech needs them do you not need them for a 'human built' version?
This might work alongside the suggestions above (albeit maybe fewer of them) such as alien alloy based weapons and AP ammo/gas grenades.
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Yes, i think there could be an option to follow:
* Laser Pistol + Plasma Pistol + Clip => Some new hybrid pistol technology. It could provide more speed and damage than both.
* Laser Rifle + Plasma Rifle + Clip => Some new hybrid rifle technology. It could have seriously upgraded aiming mode that would actually be useful, allowing perfect CTH even for people with lesser accuracy (say 150% or 175% built-in accuracy). It could have less accurate than plasma rifle, but faster to compensate (and overall better) snap shots. And have more shots per clip
* Heavy Laser + Heavy Plasma + Clip => Some new hybrid heavy weapon technology. It could have unlimited ammo (since in a bigger gun its easier to fit a compact reactor that makes it powered forever or require recharege only after combat) or built-in 100 or so shots. Maybe it could be even directly elerium-fed (meaning, it costs 1 elerium to recharge, say, 50 shots at base). It could have damage surpassing heavy plasma so it would blast ufo walls easier. Would also be faster (and have a reasonable aimed shot mode, again, as both rifle and heavy plasma have useless aimed shot modes)
* Blaster Launcher + Bomb + Small Launcher + Bomb => Some new hybrid autocanon-like technology. Having multiple ammunition possible, it could load stun, he or plasma projectiles. It would be heavier than autocanon, but pack a seriously bigger punch, close to that of a rocket launcher lg. With autofire capabilities :)
* Alien grenade + Psi tech => Some new psi-grenade that would deal new damage type that only harms living beings, ignores items and walls. It would also probably go through them completely. Target would use its Psi resistance instead of armor to protect itself from this kind of damage. Should be very fun means of cleaning those aliens behind the door.
Problem is - does X-Com needs a better weapon tech?
Maybe X-Com needs to have some handicap when using alien equipment - like, -15% chance to hit since its unusual to humans (not made for their kind of hands etc.) Since otherwise, due to aliens providing generous supply of heavy plasma, and heavy plasma being like second best to-go weapon in the game (considering damage,speed,and accuracy) (after plasma rifle, imho, which just owns with it 85% snaps) (but having benefit of more damage and being able to breach ufo walls which can argueably help alot).... well, there is no need for better weapons.
In fact, this game lacks better armor, not better weapons. (And bigger item limit!)
With heavy plasma (provided you'd not have problems with item limit) every person in your squad can down every single alien in the game (maybe except sectopod) in one-two hits, reliably, with serious accuracy.
What else do you need?
However, in best flying armor, you can still very easilly go dead one-shot from two most common enemy endgame weapons in the game - blaster launcher and heavy plasma.
Maybe an advanced armor is what we need? Something providing more armor than a flying suit, but without flying capability and having more energy spent. Something that turns your soldiers into a walking mecha. But at a cost of course - of lesser mobility. That would also make you choose between mobility and defense - which would make serious sense, since right now your only limit is resources.
PS: As a side mod, something could be done that would make X-Com seriously handicapped when using alien equipment or outright not being able to use it, at all.
This would require an alternative research route (after laser and plasma are through) that would create new technology that would rival those of aliens (then it could even have similar stats, just different looks and sounds). Like "here's our Human response to your Alien heavy plasma!"
Same for grenades and every alien stuff. Would make sense, really.
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the trouble with moddable or upgradeable weapons/armor/ammo/craft in-game has already been mentioned: if you keep adding stuff to the game, the lists ("equip craft", for example) will become incredibly long, and after a while you won't even be able to remember which of your soldiers uses what kind of rifle.
I'm a big fan of the idea of improving human technology by implementing alien tech, though. perhaps when you research a new technology, certain items can simply be replaced by the improved version? for example after researching alien alloys, a new research option would be "improved rifle". once you've researched that, all rifles will be upgraded.
the only trouble is, human items can be bought... then again, the ufopaedia text would just need to include a passage about giving out the blueprints to your suppliers, which then continue to build only the improved versions from then on. and since they are so happy about the new toys, they instantly replace all your already-bought stuff with the improved versions.
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Well... researching the Small Launcher and its ammo could lead to those new Non-Lethal Weapons development we all want.
Specifically, a new grenade, new ammo type for human weapons and a human version of the Small Launcher. I have sprites for them already. :P
Also, a good idea to avoid the Small Launcher to become obsolete is to make it able to set waypoints in the same way a Blaster Launcher does. Maybe making it able to set less waypoints.