OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => The X-Com Files => Topic started by: Charly1 on October 05, 2022, 02:20:09 am
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I am using mostly Magnums for all of my agents. I have a couple of hunting rifles.
Never a big fan of shotguns because of the range.
What is the best P2 level rifle and assault rifle, especially for AP purposes?
Cheers!
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Hunting rifles still perform much better at long-range shots.
Once you get your accuracy up, shotguns actually have more accuracy at range than magnums. Slugs are also a thing.
In fact, I have a hard time seeing how Magnums are more accurate than shotguns. I just tried an old save with 66-accuracy agents, a plain pump-action vs a magnum. At its max 'effective' range, the magnum's aimed shot had 59 accuracy vs the shotgun's 81. The shotgun did go to 0 accuracy one tile earlier, but some more accuracy training will fix that. For snap shots, it was 46 vs 42, though the shotgun petered out much faster.
Of course, you can shoot more often with a Magnum, one-handed, all that jazz. But range on a Magnum is not really all that much better than for a shotgun.
Btw, Desert Eagles are better than Magnums until alloy ammo becomes a thing. Less damage lost to armour, mildly longer range before accuracy penalties kick in, one extra round per mag.
What is the best P2 level rifle and assault rifle, especially for AP purposes?
Assault rifle: the Smartrifle. AP rifle: BO Sniper Rifle. Honourable mention: SVD for up to three snap shots a turn, power bonus from accuracy and 50-200% damage, all without the drawbacks of a dedicated sniper rifle.
How good and easy to access the BO weapons are (if you go for them and aren't screwed over by RNG) has been a point of contention for a while.
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Thanks mate
Interesting on the shotguns. I had a couple of spec ops magnums early on and I like being able to duel wield a melee, stunner or torch. Cant say I have had a problem, but maybe I should give the shotguns a try.
Which would you recommend?
Will check out he Desert Eagle too.
And while I am here... I jusrt had a humans v monsters mission. All the civilians and zombie are now dead, and these 2 armoured red guys with swords just wont seem to die, or even get injured when I hit them with a baradiche or hunting rifle. Do i have the capability to damage them with these weapons?
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For shotguns and Promo II, I recommend the 'Shotgun' shotgun and its successor the BO Shotgun. Wide variety of ammo, passable accuracy. There's also Solarius's favourite, the Sawed-Off, which can hit at a surprising distance.
CAWS for fast fire and Thrashers for absolute devastation are worth trying later on. Full auto shotguns are mostly for anti-Zombie work if that. Some heavy weapons also fire interesting sorts of buckshot, like the infamous Light Cannons from the other thread.
For the monster mission, I see you're having your (first?) encounter with the vampires. :D People tend to set them on fire to get some breathing room.
Bardiches should work if you can hit them. Even a merely fully gymmed agent (60 melee, 45 strength) should be doing almost 30 damage a pop on average to the sides and back.
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I hit him about 4 times in a turn with my big axe, but there was no red damage indicator after any of the hits. Then I stabbed him with my second guy with a combat knife about 4 times.
Then he had his go... It was not pretty.
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Did you actually hit him? Was there a hit sound and/or a white 'no damage' flash? Maybe he's just dodging, these effing vampires have over 30 dodge.
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For an assault rifle at promo II I would recommend the G11 mainly due to how good the auto fire is. Forget about all other rifles that need to use snap fire because they can shit beyond 4 titles, the G11 behaves as his name indicate in being an assault rifle with 65% acc in auto maintained up to 14 titles ( pratically same acc of a AKM snap). Plus it can do two aimed shots from a fix position which is always good for long range engagements. Plus if your soldier is brave it actually hits hard.
For rifles, while the hunting rifle is verry competitive, I prefer switching to the SVD and standard sniper rifles at promo II main reason due to the power bonus from accuracy. Also I agree with juku, shotguns > magnums, plus they can be equipped with baton shells that while incconsistent, can be useful for capturing enemies.
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I got access to blackops stuff pretty quickly after Promotion 2.
Its hard to see past the blackops sniper rifle at the moment.
In fact most weapons you gain access to at P2 look worse than what black ops have on offer. I never really got past hunting rifles.
Maybe black ops stuff should take slightly longer to get?
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Once I get them I mostly use PSG-1's and Colt Commandos. There are better rifles in the mod, but I like to stick with real-world firearms when possible as a self-imposed challenge.
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But... Colt Commandos and PSG-1 rifles were historically rather niche weapons. Commandos were also nearly dead by the time the PSG-1 started production as well.
SVDs and AKs, or M16s and .308s would be some of the 'realistic' combos.
Of course, maybe your paranormal investigation agency is made up of exotic weapon enthusiasts who will riot if issued 'mainstream' weapons. :D
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I like to play 'semi-realistically' in the early game, so I give my agents weapons that are available in the area of their base eg. M16s in the USA, AKs in Eastern Europe, FAMAS/L85s/AUGs in West Europe and AUGs in Australia (who use them for their military).
Once I get access to Blackops I use those, mainly the 'smart' versions, until more advanced weapons like lasers are available from MIB missions, which you use without researching them first. Gauss weapons are powerful, but also very heavy so only one or two agents in a squad can use them so I don't bother and just sell any I capture. I have captured Mass weapons, but I can't research them yet.
I also have some heavy weapons like MGs, RPGs, grenade launchers and cannons in my squads to deal with 'difficult' enemies. RPGs or rocket-launchers can be used on the Little Birds along with MGs or miniguns by the way!
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I got access to blackops stuff pretty quickly after Promotion 2.
Its hard to see past the blackops sniper rifle at the moment.
In fact most weapons you gain access to at P2 look worse than what black ops have on offer. I never really got past hunting rifles.
Maybe black ops stuff should take slightly longer to get?
I wouldn't say they overall replace all the Promo II stuff, as weapons like the OICW has no equivalent (well the Lc, but it is a joke ) and BO assault rifles are worse than the G11 due to being slower at firing. By Promo II I usually use:
Pistols: Mk23 Socom due to being common enough and having enough punch against more armored enemies. BO pistol is better due to more ammo and slighly better snap , but they ain't much difference. Although really pistols imo are better as backups comapare to smgs, so even the more weakly beretta can still be used against black lotus or Dagon. I'm not a fan of hand cannons overall, but I prefer the Deagle over the magnum at this point, or the Widley on high acc soldiers against less armored foes.
Smg: BO submachine gun is pretty good and replace the machine pistols (skorpion, rak) in being portable enough and providing a lot of firepower. The Big Mac 10 is also an option althought frankly I find it to innaccurate. The other smg I used is the P 90 for less accurate agents as it's accurate, doesn't take a lot of TU and has good ap capacities.
Shotguns: Black ops all the way, first the BO shotgun and then the CAWS.
Rifles: G11 basically outshines everything else due to the reasons above, but also the OICW provides reasonable firepower while being long range enogh. BO rifle ain't that spectacualr without tritanium, and the BO assault rifle is a bad rifle overall.
Snipers: SVD and Bo sniper rifle. Bo sniper rifle is slighly better than the PSG-1, and in hands of less trained agents the .308 is better. SVD are much better than the auto sniper and really shine as reaction fire long range rifles, hiiting like a truck.
Other BO weapons include the spypistol(worse imo than the snub revolver) the miniguns (ligth one being okayish close range weapon, big one being a massive overkill), the machine guns (which IIRC the smart one isn't avatible early, so bad weapons overall) . So in summary I would say BO weapons complement, rather than replace standard weapons and really they ain't massively better with regular ammo compare to standard guns.
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...BO assault rifles are worse than the G11 due to being slower at firing.
IMO, the BO rifles, Smartrifle and G11 all have something to offer and none is strictly better than all others at all things:
- Smartrifle: Most lead downrange, best snap and aimed accuracy, TU and range (except aimed, where the BO Rifle is slightly better). Poorer armour penetration (90%).
- G11: Best auto-shot accuracy and range, three auto-shots per turn, middle-range armor penetration (85%). Damage is dependent on bravery and getting a soldier to have enough to compete with alloy ammo (180 bravery) can be hard. Poor aimed shot (so it's not really a rifle, more of a pseudo-machinegun), even if you might get to shoot twice per turn every once in a while.
- BO Rifle: Best aimed accuracy, best armor penetration (80%) for regular rounds (but not alloy ones, which are 85% for some reason).
- BO Assault Rifle: 4-shot autofire with the same 80% AP ammo. Two aimed shots per turn. Worse stats otherwise, though.
The Smartrifle is the best general-purpose rifle, the G11 is the best medium-range autorifle (assuming your soldier has enough bravery).
Pistols: Mk23 Socom due to being common enough and having enough punch against more armored enemies. BO pistol is better due to more ammo and slighly better snap , but they ain't much difference.
BO pistol has two other advantages: 1) it takes alloy rounds, so can get a mid-game damage upgrade (which is pretty big due to the game's armour penetration model), and 2) 4 extra tiles of aimed range, which is minor and mostly compensates for its lower aimed accuracy.
Shotguns: Black ops all the way, first the BO shotgun and then the CAWS.
No love for the Thrasher? That thing just deletes lightly armoured targets.
SVD are much better than the auto sniper and really shine as reaction fire long range rifles, hiiting like a truck.
Being better might be true, hitting like a truck compared to the BO Auto-Sniper not quite, due to 1) alloy ammo and 2) much better armour penetration. Maybe it's irrelevant because you're not shooting armoured enemies much, but all the 'proper' sniper rifles have a better armour penetration coefficient than regular rifles. Which the SVD is for some reason, despite the 'S' in its name. :-\
spypistol(worse imo than the snub revolver)
Spypistol's one party trick is being able to be taken to certain covert missions (industrial and skiing). Nailguns and crossbows are probably better, though.
...the machine guns (which IIRC the smart one isn't avatible early, so bad weapons overall).
Eh, I figure the plain BO LMG is about as much better as the real-world machineguns as the Smartgun is better than the BO LMG. If you compare the auto-shots for the G11 and the BO LMG, I think the BO LMG comes out on top, especially since you can trade shots for accuracy and vice versa.
So in summary I would say BO weapons complement, rather than replace standard weapons and really they ain't massively better with regular ammo compare to standard guns.
Really?
Pistols: Just minor improvements until alloy ammo and/or the smart versions, agreed.
SMGs: The BO SMG has a massively more accurate and flexible autofire, especially due to its 3-round snap. The Macro SMG has beastly damage on top of being quite accurate. Whether an SMG is something you want to use, well, IDK... But if you do, a BO version is significantly better in the SMG role (the P90 is sorta edging into assault rifle territory).
Assault rifles: Except for the G11, the BO rifles are noticeably better than the competion. Especially the versions that give you two aimed shots per turn on top of autofire. If you don't need both aimed and auto shots, you don't need an assault rifle, period.
Shotguns: Some of the best offerings are BO.
Machine guns: Also considerably better than historical weapons. The Smartgun is the best kinetic machine gun until the more sci-fi weapons show up.
Sniper rifles: Ditto.
Rifles: Yeah, worse than the scaling regular rifles.
Miniguns: No real competition. The actual SMGs of the mod, and good for stripping armour.
Heavy weapons: The BO Assault Cannon is better than the Auto-Cannon at what it does.
I'd say that except for handguns and non-sniper rifles, the BO weapons are all at least a moderate upgrade. And all of them get a new lease of life with alloy ammo.
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Well I was leaving smart guns outside of the conversation as that is mostly syndicate missions, and that is more promo III territory, ie only speaking about initial BO weapons + the auto sniper bc sometimes you randomly get it early. Same with tritanium ammo, you can get it not that late depending on RNG but I think it is higher tier stuff Regardless..
IMO, the BO rifles, Smartrifle and G11 all have something to offer and none is strictly better than all others at all things:
- Smartrifle: Most lead downrange, best snap and aimed accuracy, TU and range (except aimed, where the BO Rifle is slightly better). Poorer armour penetration (90%).
- G11: Best auto-shot accuracy and range, three auto-shots per turn, middle-range armor penetration (85%). Damage is dependent on bravery and getting a soldier to have enough to compete with alloy ammo (180 bravery) can be hard. Poor aimed shot (so it's not really a rifle, more of a pseudo-machinegun), even if you might get to shoot twice per turn every once in a while.
- BO Rifle: Best aimed accuracy, best armor penetration (80%) for regular rounds (but not alloy ones, which are 85% for some reason).
- BO Assault Rifle: 4-shot autofire with the same 80% AP ammo. Two aimed shots per turn. Worse stats otherwise, though.
The Smartrifle is the best general-purpose rifle, the G11 is the best medium-range autorifle (assuming your soldier has enough bravery).
Bo rifle get outshine by the L85 in medium range due to two snaps + one aimed shots (the Famas also can do this). Also the Nato battle rifles hit harder than the BO rifle with acc. Even the G11 can be better due to two aimed shots from a fix position. So yeah the Bo rifle may have one shot better accuracy, but the auto fire makes all the difference. There is no comparison between shooting 9 rounds for 84% TU to three snaps shots from the BO at 75% TU, and from a fixed spot two aimed shots > one aimed + one snap. You also get more ammo with the G11, and unlike the smart rifle, it is always accesible in 1997.
No love for the Thrasher? That thing just deletes lightly armoured targets.
I just noticed the Thraser is a promo I gun, :o Yeah best shotgun for a dedicated shotgun role, not as multi-useful as the CAWS.
Being better might be true, hitting like a truck compared to the BO Auto-Sniper not quite, due to 1) alloy ammo and 2) much better armour penetration. Maybe it's irrelevant because you're not shooting armoured enemies much, but all the 'proper' sniper rifles have a better armour penetration coefficient than regular rifles. Which the SVD is for some reason, despite the 'S' in its name. :-\
Compare to the hunting rifle. Also armour pen doesn't matter that much when you add power bonus. Much better to get a three snaps possibility even against medium armor targets. Tritanium ammo is another matter but you also get the Arasaka 4000 in that case.
Eh, I figure the plain BO LMG is about as much better as the real-world machineguns as the Smartgun is better than the BO LMG. If you compare the auto-shots for the G11 and the BO LMG, I think the BO LMG comes out on top, especially since you can trade shots for accuracy and vice versa.
If you want to use good MG smartgun not included you use the MG 3 or the M240. Much better than the sorry excuse of BO Lmg.
Really?
At the moment you unlock BO stuff yes.
SMGs: The BO SMG has a massively more accurate and flexible autofire, especially due to its 3-round snap. The Macro SMG has beastly damage on top of being quite accurate. Whether an SMG is something you want to use, well, IDK... But if you do, a BO version is significantly better in the SMG role (the P90 is sorta edging into assault rifle territory).
3 shot snap is not uncommon in smg, and yes i would consider the BO smg the biggest improvement inmediatly after unlocking.
Sniper rifles: Ditto.
Not that big of a step up between the PSG 1 and the Bo sniper rifle.
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Thanks everybody.
Gives me a lot to think about.
I almost never use the auto shots, so look for the best snap % and damage on rifles.
I have mainly started to use the Black Ops sniper rifle, as it usually kills in a single aimed shot at extreme ranges.
Just started gone into October and had my first mannor. It spawned right on top of my main base, and I couldnt launch any vehicle without it getting shot down, apart from my snazzy sports car. So I thought, sod it, lets send in my two best guys and see how it goes. We camped the entrance and killed over 30 Dagon cultists (and a few maids...) before anyone got any shots back off. By the sounds of things they will get a lot more difficult, so I have rediverted my research into better vehicles and weapons (I dont have any). Need to get some AT stuff too by the sounds of things.
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The best way to deal with manors is promo III weapons. Rocket launcher + mortar + heavy grenade launcher with gas will make your life much easier, as really manors need good crow control options. The best you can do with promo II stuff is dynamite and the Milkor (specially useful if you manage to get some napalm ammo)but I would recommned always rushing Promo III ASAP ( The most consistent way imo to prio Church of Dagon )
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Well I was leaving smart guns outside of the conversation as that is mostly syndicate missions, and that is more promo III territory
You can also loot Smartrifles from various MiB missions. Even from the David Vincent ambush or the Crop Circles if you get lucky. RNG, yes, but it's not impossible to get smart weapons early-ish.
Bo rifle get outshine by the L85 in medium range due to two snaps + one aimed shots (the Famas also can do this).
The BO Assault Rifle can do the same, or two aimed shots - which neither of those can. It has somewhat worse aimed accuracy and somewhat better snap accuracy, plus considerably better autofire and slightly higher damage in a range that matters a lot (good early-game enemy armour tends to be around 20-30).
The BO rifle is the new SVD, and it's indeed not very good. I'm mainly arguing for the Smartrifle, which technically is a Promo II weapon. It combines all the BO improvements into one package and adds more on top.
I also have slightly improved sprites for both the BO rifles, so I'm a little biased due to that. :)
Also the Nato battle rifles hit harder than the BO rifle with acc.
Yeah. :( Part of the weird balance in this mod. Although 7.62x51 has less armour penetration than BO rounds or even 5.56 :o, so it evens out a little. Not enough to lift the BO rifle out of mediocrity, sadly.
Also armour pen doesn't matter that much when you add power bonus.
BO Auto-Sniper also has a power bonus. A better one than the SVD, in fact.
Look, I'm not saying the BO Auto-Sniper is better than the SVD. That lack of three snaps really hurts. Its just that it does hit as about as hard, and harder against anyone with some actual armour.
If you want to use good MG smartgun not included you use the MG 3 or the M240. Much better than the sorry excuse of BO Lmg.
Er, what?
M-60 vs BO LMG: virtually the same damage, including armour penetration. About the same accuracy at 30+ tiles, maybe BO a bit worse for poor shots. Huge boost to M-60 with kneeling which will largely go away once your soldiers hit 100+ firing accuracy. About 25% better accuracy for the BO within 25 tiles, equalised when kneeling. Massive weight advantage for the BO, compensated for by a huge ammo capacity you'll never actually need during most missions. Better burst trade-off for the BO, 3 vs 2 snap is much more reliable. And, most importantly, can get off two auto-shots without being restricted to staring in the same direction.
I would say they're broadly comparable, with the M-60 being a better in static positions and with worse shots, and the BO being better for trained agents who maneuver around more. Guess which kind of soldiers agents I have. :P
BO vs the LMGs: better damage, better accuracy at 25+ tiles, an actual 3-round burst. 'Nuff said.
3 shot snap is not uncommon in smg...
It's not the snap that's unique, it's the accuracy and damage combination. The BO SMG has as good or better damage than any other 3-round-snap SMG, and up to 50-100% better accuracy at range.
Not that big of a step up between the PSG 1 and the Bo sniper rifle.
IMO the big difference is the ability to fire two snaps in any direction or after kneeling/standing. The other improvements are indeed minor.
I almost never use the auto shots, so look for the best snap % and damage on rifles.
Then the SVD, the Galil, the G11 and the Smartrifle are all good. IMO the Smartrifle is the best due to being most flexible. YMMV.
We camped the entrance and killed over 30 Dagon cultists (and a few maids...) before anyone got any shots back off.
Wait until you hit a Red Dawn manor, or one of the cultists manages to produce a grenade onto your camping spot. :(
The best you can do with promo II stuff is dynamite and the Milkor...
The OICW is also a possibility, but damn is it expensive.
Early manors are not too bad and give you some experience with the map.
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The BO Assault Rifle can do the same, or two aimed shots - which neither of those can. It has somewhat worse aimed accuracy and somewhat better snap accuracy, plus considerably better autofire and slightly higher damage in a range that matters a lot (good early-game enemy armour tends to be around 20-30).
The BO rifle is the new SVD, and it's indeed not very good. I'm mainly arguing for the Smartrifle, which technically is a Promo II weapon. It combines all the BO improvements into one package and adds more on top.
I also have slightly improved sprites for both the BO rifles, so I'm a little biased due to that. :)
The BO assault rifle aimed shot is rubbish, aimed shots below 100 acc are not TU efficient. Also no, the BO rifle isn't the new SVD, they fill different roles. Ofc for most situations I think the SVD comes on top which is the sad story of AR in Xcom, lacking the real life advantage of firerate. And that's why I think the G11 is superior to either two, bc it is an effective weapon at short and medium ranges thanks to the only practically useful auto fire (seriously 65% acc at 16 range is fantastic) and is still better at long range engagement, only losing to the BO rifle in super long aimed shots.
Look, I'm not saying the BO Auto-Sniper is better than the SVD. That lack of three snaps really hurts. Its just that it does hit as about as hard, and harder against anyone with some actual armour.
Again compare to the hunting rifle, I don't know why you keep comparing to the auto. Regardless in practical terms damage output between the two is very similar with slightly better armor pen with the auto (and really not that it make much of a difference.
Er, what?
M-60 vs BO LMG: virtually the same damage, including armour penetration. About the same accuracy at 30+ tiles, maybe BO a bit worse for poor shots. Huge boost to M-60 with kneeling which will largely go away once your soldiers hit 100+ firing accuracy. About 25% better accuracy for the BO within 25 tiles, equalised when kneeling. Massive weight advantage for the BO, compensated for by a huge ammo capacity you'll never actually need during most missions. Better burst trade-off for the BO, 3 vs 2 snap is much more reliable. And, most importantly, can get off two auto-shots without being restricted to staring in the same direction.
I would say they're broadly comparable, with the M-60 being a better in static positions and with worse shots, and the BO being better for trained agents who maneuver around more. Guess which kind of soldiers agents I have. :P
BO vs the LMGs: better damage, better accuracy at 25+ tiles, an actual 3-round burst. 'Nuff said.
This is so wrong in so many ways. First of no, the accuracy bonus while kneeling doesn't go away at 100+ accuracy as you stated, you can see it yourself how it massively improve accuracy and why the Nato GPMG get better acc. Second of all why would you run with your Mg's around? You get assault rifles and the BO smg to do exactly that. Sure snap fire in the BO assault LMg is better, specially while standing, but using this weapons that way is a waste. What you want for a mg is fixed long range auto fire, and the MG 3 does it better than the initial BO mg. The smart gun is another matter. And anyways mg's in general are niche or outrigth bad, so not much point beating a dead horse.
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The BO assault rifle aimed shot is rubbish, aimed shots below 100 acc are not TU efficient.
They are when you get two of them instead of one and the accuracy difference isn't big (as it is the case with the G11 vs BO AR). And with ~120 firing accuracy (this is where my midgame maxed-and-enhanced-and-commended soldiers end up at) the aimed accuracy is tolerable, 90+ at 30 tiles. I'll take two 90+ shots over one 120+ shot from a G11 any day.
This two aimed shots thing is its only advantage over the G11, though, which is why it doesn't compete. OTOH, L85 and FAMAS are only significantly better at aimed shot accuracy. Damage, autofire, two aimed shots, pretty much all the medium-range stuff is notably better.
Also no, the BO rifle isn't the new SVD, they fill different roles.
What role does the BO rifle fill that isn't covered by the SVD? Pretty much anything else it does, something already does better.
Again compare to the hunting rifle, I don't know why you keep comparing to the auto.
Because of
SVD are much better than the auto sniper and really shine as reaction fire long range rifles, hiiting like a truck.
I don't know where the Hunting Rifle comes into this.
Regardless in practical terms damage output between the two is very similar with slightly better armor pen with the auto (and really not that it make much of a difference.
If you have to shoot your BO Auto-Sniper at something armoured (for some strange reason), there's a significant damage difference. Up to ~50% vs an Armoured Car, for example.
What I'm saying is that if the BO Auto-Sniper also got 3 snaps per turn, it'd be an actual not-insignificant upgrade over the SVD. Whereas you seem to think it'd still be worse?
First of no, the accuracy bonus while kneeling doesn't go away at 100+ accuracy as you stated...
Auto-battle tests, hit 'chance' for accuracy 100 soldiers at 30 tiles:
- M-60: Standing: 32%. Kneeling: 48%.
- BO LMG: Standing: 36%/32%. Kneeling: 47%/42%.
Accuracy 50 soldiers at 30 tiles:
- M-60: Standing: 16%. Kneeling: 24%.
- BO LMG: Standing: 14%. Kneeling: 17%.
Exactly how is this not 'largely goes away'?
30 (well, 32) tiles is the max range for the GPMGs, too, so it's not as if there's going to be any improvement further out.
Second of all why would you run with your Mg's around? You get assault rifles and the BO smg to do exactly that.
I don't run around all over the map, I take a few steps, turn in another direction, maybe kneel. Any of those means I lose one long burst from the GPMGs, but not the BO LMG. And the GPMG short burst sucks.
Sure snap fire in the BO assault LMg is better, specially while standing, but using this weapons that way is a waste.
Not using it like that at least some of the time means I should have ditched the machine gun altogether and used a sniper rifle instead.
What you want for a mg is fixed long range auto fire, and the MG 3 does it better than the initial BO mg.
Not really due to the 50% TU requirement. One burst vs two is significant, and enemies don't always line up the way you want them to.
And anyways mg's in general are niche or outrigth bad, so not much point beating a dead horse.
Yeah. :( But I really want to play like an actual military.
All of this is kinda pointless, though, since I doubt the mod balance will change and we're stuck with semi-useless machine guns, mostly rubbish assault rifles and pistols being better at shooting six bullets a turn at medium range and hitting than machine guns.
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What role does the BO rifle fill that isn't covered by the SVD? Pretty much anything else it does, something already does better.
How about consitent damage long range with growing damage with accuracy? unless you consider sniper rifle equal to rifles.
Because ofI don't know where the Hunting Rifle comes into this.
Being better than the auto sniper and the hitting like truck statements are separate . Both are also true: the SVD is better than the auto sniper due to snap shots you already mention AND it hit pretty hard.
If you have to shoot your BO Auto-Sniper at something armoured (for some strange reason), there's a significant damage difference. Up to ~50% vs an Armoured Car, for example.
Check your math, it doesn't add up. Frontally an armored car is 65, 100% kinetic damage taken. At 100 accuracy both the SVD and auto deal 50 damage, with 90% armor effectiveness to 75%. So the SVD is facing 58 armor to the auto 48-49. The difference is thus 10 points of damage. So yeah there may be big relative differences in damage but only on the regions where it matter the less bc you are dealing 5-10 points of damage.
What I'm saying is that if the BO Auto-Sniper also got 3 snaps per turn, it'd be an actual not-insignificant upgrade over the SVD. Whereas you seem to think it'd still be worse?
I didn't say that ,ofc with a 3 snap it would be better. Problem would be that it would probably to good, specially bc it gets also accuracy from reaction fire due reasons , so it could probably even outshine the BO sniper rifle (well the SVD holds another small advantage in not having minimun range)
Auto-battle tests, hit 'chance' for accuracy 100 soldiers at 30 tiles:
- M-60: Standing: 32%. Kneeling: 48%.
- BO LMG: Standing: 36%/32%. Kneeling: 47%/42%.
Accuracy 50 soldiers at 30 tiles:
- M-60: Standing: 16%. Kneeling: 24%.
- BO LMG: Standing: 14%. Kneeling: 17%.
Exactly how is this not 'largely goes away'?
Because it ain't? Also are you sure you did the test correct? bc either by testing or by maths I don't get that results
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How about consitent damage long range with growing damage with accuracy?
But the latter is what the SVD does, and what the BO Rifle doesn't. And the former is why I said the BO Rifle is the new SVD, except worse.
Being better than the auto sniper and the hitting like truck statements are separate.
But I already acknowledged this:
Being better might be true, hitting like a truck compared to the BO Auto-Sniper not quite...
I was saying the BO Auto-Sniper hits harder, and you somehow got a Hunting Rifle tangent out of this.
I no longer know what you're arguing for here. What I am saying is that the BO Auto-Sniper hits a a bit harder, which is one of its benefits over the SVD. Not enough to be strictly better, but something (among other things like sniper formula or reaction boost to accuracy).
Check your math, it doesn't add up. Frontally an armored car is 65, 100% kinetic damage taken. At 100 accuracy both the SVD and auto deal 50 damage, with 90% armor effectiveness to 75%. So the SVD is facing 58 armor to the auto 48-49. The difference is thus 10 points of damage. So yeah there may be big relative differences in damage but only on the regions where it matter the less bc you are dealing 5-10 points of damage.
The math does not work that way. These rifles do 25-100 in this situation, not 50 damage. The SVD does 0 damage about twice as often, and thus you can't just use 50, nor even 62.5 damage, for averages.
And if you're dealing 5-10 points of damage, +10 is a world of difference. Although the actual averages are ~11.6 vs ~17.6. 17.6/11.6 is a little over 1.5, about 7-8 hits to kill vs 5-6. Of course, from the rear you get less of an advantage, only about +35% average damage, more heavily armoured units are impervious and for most human enemies it's under +10%, so almost irrelevant.
Problem would be that it would probably to good, specially bc it gets also accuracy from reaction fire due reasons , so it could probably even outshine the BO sniper rifle...
Well, make the Auto-Sniper the snap king with 32% or 33% TU, scale accuracy with 0.005*FIR^2 + 0.005*REA^2, take some of the damage away, perhaps also a bit of armour penetration... That would leave both rifles with a niche while still being an upgrade over historical weapons.
Also are you sure you did the test correct? bc either by testing or by maths I don't get that results
Okay, apparently I was using my own 25% kneeling bonus instead of the vanilla (and mod's) 15%. I thought the BO LMG naturally had 25%, but it appears global changes also get highlighted in the Nerdpedia.
So, redone tests: accuracy 100 soldiers at 30 tiles:
- M-60: Standing: 32%. Kneeling: 48%.
- BO LMG: Standing: 34%/30%. Kneeling: 40%/36%.
Accuracy 50 soldiers at 30 tiles:
- M-60: Standing: 16%. Kneeling: 24%.
- BO LMG: Standing: 12%/10%. Kneeling: 15%/13%.
Worse than I thought it was, but still a major closing of the gap. GPMG autofire is indeed noticeably better even with aimbots. Not another auto-shot better, though, so I still say once your soldiers get some solid accuracy and you can't take advantage of the 50% TU autoshots (which is most of the time for me), the BO LMG is better.
As an aside, most of the LMGs sharing the generic kneeling bonus is another way this mod's machine guns get shafted. And that's actually another way you could make sniper rifles more distinct: give the high-end sniper rifles bigger kneeling bonuses while leaving rifles like the Hunting Rifle, SVD, even the Auto-Sniper with lesser boosts.
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The Black Ops Auto Sniper rifle. Once you get your hands on this (with Titranium clips) you can handle almost any enemy except Sectapods and Ethrals. I have also found in some cases, hitting Sectapods from the front (vs. the rear) can have better results.
With Ethrals I have found sometimes they are not even worth the ammo in your gun, if wearing synthsuits, just pop them a few times with some melee action. They go down faster than trying to cap them.
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The BO Auto-Sniper only has the auto-shot over the regular BO Sniper Rifle. Which is kinda inaccurate. I guess at medium-close range the triple-dipping damage and penetration are good enough to be worth trying, but there are also a zillion other weapons with their own perks that work there.
Some other heavily armoured enemies might also make the BO Auto-Sniper not quite cut it. Power armoured enemies like MiB heavies or Gillmen heroes, Muton Obliterators or Reptoid Dragonfire turrets. Not sure any of those are more common than Sectopods, though.
I have no idea how hitting a Sectopod from the front can be better than shooting it in the back. Nearly 50% extra armour, no need to spin and waste TUs while reaction firing back at your agents. What could possibly be the upshot here?
Ethereals are tough against kinetic damage and weak against cutting/stunning, true. Trying to melee them has all the usual drawbacks - RNG bonanza due to their not inconsiderable dodge value, waste TU and energy running up to them, possibly take reaction fire while doing so - plus better chances of being a psi target (snipers can hide for a few turns to wait out the spotting, stabbers really can't due to psi-vision). Shooting them with a plasma or chem weapon is a better idea. Pulse weapons usually come online before Ethereals do.
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The BO Auto-Sniper only has the auto-shot over the regular BO Sniper Rifle. Which is kinda inaccurate. I guess at medium-close range the triple-dipping damage and penetration are good enough to be worth trying, but there are also a zillion other weapons with their own perks that work there.
Some other heavily armoured enemies might also make the BO Auto-Sniper not quite cut it. Power armoured enemies like MiB heavies or Gillmen heroes, Muton Obliterators or Reptoid Dragonfire turrets. Not sure any of those are more common than Sectopods, though.
I have no idea how hitting a Sectopod from the front can be better than shooting it in the back. Nearly 50% extra armour, no need to spin and waste TUs while reaction firing back at your agents. What could possibly be the upshot here?
Ethereals are tough against kinetic damage and weak against cutting/stunning, true. Trying to melee them has all the usual drawbacks - RNG bonanza due to their not inconsiderable dodge value, waste TU and energy running up to them, possibly take reaction fire while doing so - plus better chances of being a psi target (snipers can hide for a few turns to wait out the spotting, stabbers really can't due to psi-vision). Shooting them with a plasma or chem weapon is a better idea. Pulse weapons usually come online before Ethereals do.
Agreed with everything your saying. I've yet to even get to plasma weapons yet.
About the Sectapods, I don't understand it either, I am also aware about their vulnerability to rear armor (at least in the vanilla game) But I am starting to notice more damage hitting from the front at times. Might be the shot, IDK.
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Plasmas are hard to get, but Ethereal shields are very weak to acid/chem, for some reason.
All 4x4 enemies are vulnerable from below, too. More than from the back, usually, and they take 4x the damage on top.
The Sectopod thing might just be RNG. I mean, if you roll high on the frontal attack and low on the backstab, that's what it'd look like.
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Before I got laser rifles, back when I was mainly facing the cults and monsters, I tended to bring a combination of P90s, UAC Rifles, stun weapons (shotguns, grenade launchers, tactical grenade launchers, or taser cannons), and Asuka 4000s for sniping.
P90s are lightweight and fit in two inventory slots, can be fired many times per turn, and work well against early enemies.
UAC rifles fire three shots every trigger pull and are deadly at close range. They do more per-pellet damage than shotguns, which makes them better against armor. I used them for their ability to do tremendous amounts of damage to enemies at close range, for use on enemies nearby after landing, or when breaching a door or turning a corner etc.
Asukas are a sniper rifle and get damage buffs but iirc from reactions instead of firing accuracy, so they're a little weird. I like them better than the BO sniper rifle mainly because the BO sniper rifle has a 15 tile min range below which it rapidly loses accuracy, and the Asuka doesn't. So agents carrying Asukas can still participate in indoors battles instead of just having to chill outside waiting.
Currently, against aliens and all the things, I'm using a combination of laser rifles (X-Com made, they're better than the alien ones), taser cannons, stun spears against aquatoids to save ammo (because I use power armor and their weapons so far aren't effective against it), sonic blasta rifles if I need high damage, the sonic stun shotgun whose name I forget, and gauss pistols occasionally. I currently can't manufacture gauss weapons or ammo, or sonic weapons or ammo, so I'm trying to conserve my supply, but I like the sonic stun weapon for its ammo capacity and smaller clip size compared to the taser cannon.
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P90s I don't know since I hate the sprite. :-\ At a glance, all they really have over the two BO SMGs are the aimed shot and less ammo expenditure, while losing out in the actual SMG niche: moar dakka. Well, a bit of armour penetration, too, which will get offset by alloy ammo. Realistically, they should also do less damage than 9mm weapons, since the 5.7x28 round has an anemic rifle bullet instead of the chunky balls of lead featured in most handgun rounds. But, eh, that discussion's been had.
UAC rifles are real good, no question. Maybe too good, even. I wish their SMGs, shotguns and chainguns also had at least some of the extra dakka, though.
Asukas don't scale as well as other sniper rifles, so you lose the 100+ accuracy at beyond visual range most other dedicated sniper rifles have. Otherwise, it has its perks, as mentioned.
Lasers I've found somewhat disappointing. So many enemies also have at least a bit laser resistance, often rather close to their kinetic resistance as well. They're still among the top rifles TU- and accuracy-wise, but not being able to melt armour into slag has been a bit... unsatisfying.
...I like the sonic stun weapon for its ammo capacity and smaller clip size compared to the taser cannon.
You sure about that? :P
Enemies also resist stun more often than electric damage, including quite a few underwater creatures. Not Aquatoids nor Deep Ones Gillmen, though; nor to the degree that Taser Cannons would suddenly become competitive.
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I meant that they are *literally* smaller, being half the size of the giant car battery looking thing the taser cannons use (and have more shots per clip as well).