OpenXcom Forum

Modding => Released Mods => Topic started by: Hobbes on November 26, 2019, 04:50:28 am

Title: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 26, 2019, 04:50:28 am
I've been modding XCom for quite some time now. I've given a lot to the community and received a ton more in return. I've seen projects rise and fall, and I've seen a new vibrant modding community here at XCom, which has pleased me. And I've seen how my work has inspired others to create their own worlds, which is the great compliment I could have.

That has always been one of my intentions when I created the Terrain Pack: for people to contribute so that others could create their own worlds. But over the years, it turned solely into a collection of assets to be used by other modders using its assets, as freely and extensively as they want, and those modders even created their own terrains, but they almost never cared with sharing them in the pack. Or sometimes even giving proper credit to the Terrain Pack and its individual authors.

Furthermore, I've learned recently that there are mods that use extensively the Terrain Pack with links for donations, without asking me first for permission for them receiving money from thousands of hours of work I did for free to the community.

So, there's definitely going to need some changes regarding the Terrain Pack. SO I'd like to know everyone's opinion on these issues,  specially those of the modders using the Terrain Pack.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: efrenespartano on November 26, 2019, 05:50:03 am
I've been using the Terrain Pack extensively since I started making mods for OpenXcom almost two years ago. And I have used it for my own benefit since 4 years ago, I installed it for the first time along with so many other mods from the old mod page.

And not only that, I have used your work at TechComm (where I had the honor to help you and learn how to make mods) and Area 51 as a reference for my own projects.

One of the things I enjoy about this community is the ease of using and sharing assets created by other people. Since I started making my own mods I have used your terrains, always crediting you as it should be. To you, and all the creators of the content I use, say Solarius Scorch, Finnik, KingMob4313, Ohartenstein23, Dioxine, among others... although I must admit that I don't always ask for explicit permission. I may be careless on my part, but I always try to credit the modders who create the content I use.

I am no one to advocate for anyone (although I study to be a lawyer. xD), but I believe that the intention of the creators of the mods in question was not intended to privatize or monetize your creation with malice. Rather, to allow them to focus on creating more content for their projects and the rest of the community (and to be honest, I'm always on the lookout for the latest releases of megamods to use some sprite or block of code from some terrain or alienDeployment).

I understand your indignation and point of view. I hope this problem can be solved soon.

Enviado desde mi LG-M400 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: X-Man on November 26, 2019, 07:17:53 am
Off-topic: Thanks the God the Alphabet has no living creators and they do not contribute anything for their creation. ;D

...Man, no one downplays the importance of your work, and all adequate guys who develop their mods and use your work, always give a credit to yours. What's the problem at all? Are you offended that some mods are more popular than yours (sorry, but it is a fact)? Are you offended that someone leave a link to donations, and you didn't? Is that their problem or yours? Donations are voluntary, and no one sells their works!

Sorry, but your statement sounds like the cry of an aggrieved boy. Review all the facts and you'll see that nothing criminal there. Good luck!

Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: davide on November 26, 2019, 08:33:14 am
First, what do you do for the community with your hands and mind ?

I do not accept that in this way the Person who gave such an important impulse to the survival of this project is disrespected that without his contribution OX would probably have been concluded from years. Without his inspiration and drive I don't know if the current high talented modders would still be here to create new contents.

If you want to talk about "open source" rules it is another matter, but surely you review the setting of the speech

This is my first non-polite post in many years that I frequent the community and yours is the most offensive one I read.



Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: X-Man on November 26, 2019, 09:19:43 am
This is my first non-polite post in many years that I frequent the community and yours is the most offensive one I read.

It seems you are smart man, so why do think my post is offensive? Look deeper in the question.
No one shows disrespect to his creation, and I hope everyone knows it. The question is about damn money, as it always was during all humankind history. ;) Once again: no one sells it's mods, donations are voluntary. Why not?

As for me, you are right - I'm just a customer, an unknown common gamer. But I donated some significant amount of money to the creator of one mod, because this thing grants me a lot of fun, which I haven't had from many and many so-called AAA commercial games. And yes, as a customer I don't like the possible consequences which could happened. That's why I wrote here my post. Hobbes wanted to know the opinion of community members? Here is one of it, no less no more.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: luke83 on November 26, 2019, 09:28:32 am
For my 2 cents, this is one of the problems of making a mod that is considered "Essential" to play, there are not to many other modders around who can say they have achieved this, to have created something that 95% of the community will use every time they use OXC is something you should be proud of (and i am sure you are)! You have created something wonderful that expands the variety of the world and most players and modders are extremely grateful for what you have done, so much so that no one else now needs to build any NEW GLobe Terrain as your one mod Completely handles this (Well, im still going to build more globe terrains but NORMAL modders wont :P),  this allows modders to move onto there "Mod specific" maps for special missions as your work as handled the other side of the game.

In my mind, Allowing Donations is very different to Selling a product, If the Pirate team is given enough money to buy a box of Beer every few months ( note, i have no idea how many donations they receive so i am guessing here) really what is the harm in that,  sure if they where making enough to quit work and start modding fulltime  it may be a different story ( and i too would need to start adding Boobs to my mods to get a piece of that action  :P ).

For what its worth, i believe that Pirate and XComFiles brings new people to the community and fresh blood is needed as us old modders wont be around forever ( i already disappeared once and gosh darn it i will do it again when the PS5 comes out) so fresh blood is always needed to keep the community running, the fact that your work is part of that should be taken as praise.

Ultimately i cant tell you what to do or how to feel about this situation but for me everything comes back to, is it good for the community? 



Also, for other posting, please keep it polite, if you want expert modders to KEEP MODDING, you need to show them a little respect as it not just the mods they contribute its also all the time and effort teaching the next generation when we could be sitting back doing something FUN ( and from my experience, modding is not always fun, especially when a bloody code block that looks correct doesnt bloody work  >:( )

Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: X-Man on November 26, 2019, 09:36:48 am
Oooookay. For those who feel unpoliteness in my words...  English isn't my native language, so I beg a pardon for my poor vocabulary, which does not allows me to explain my thoughts correctly in more polite way.
I do admire every creator and love all people on the Earth :-* But please, clean the grain from the chaff.  ;)
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 26, 2019, 11:43:38 am
Turning into a collection of assets is usually what happens with such packs over time.
Its also one of the most important roles it can fulfill.

I don't know what you want (in terms of "what direction", not in terms of "i don't care"),
so my recommendation is about ease of use and simplicity.

-Giving credit to the Terrain Pack is a 100% no-argue clause.
You´re using it, you´re giving credits, its that easy.
For simplicity I´d recommend giving credits to the Terrain Pack as a whole serves the purpose,
the single contributors are credited in the Terrain Pack itself for their respective work.

-Contributing assets may be an argue point.
For the sake of the modding community, people using the pack and creating assets should contribute,
but its hard to regulate. I see no reason not to contribute your assets to the pack.
However, if someone really does not want to, should they be forced to share all their assets for using one single part of Terrain Pack?
I think not. Recommendation: For every asset you use from Terrain Pack, you have to contribute an asset from your mod, if you created some.
My hope would be that people are too lazy to count and just contribute all.
(Alternatively take a donation for using it without contribution, but gl sharing that fair with all Terain Pack contributors, so rather not)

-Donations definately are an argue point.
If you want donations, make a site and ask modders to donate. (usually its gonna be disappointing...)
But regulating donations for mods using Terrain Pack is a no-go. (by either saying they can't take donations or have to give 5% or so)
Its insanely hard to regulate in a fair way anyway.
By forbidding donations you`d say because you worked for free everyone else has to work for free too.
By taking a certain percentage you´re assigning a fixed value of the mod to the Terrain Pack.
Even the edge case, lets say someone creates a mod with 0 additional work just by including Terrain Pack and gets a ****ton of donations for it,
their main ability is "being good at getting donations", you have no claim on that either.
(From a point of fairness of course you should get a lot of that)
Basically I´m saying the amount of donations is not directly tied to amount/quality of work, but also marketing.
If someone were to run an actual business from a product including Terrain Pack thats a completely different case.
But from what I´ve seen any modder is very far from making actual revenue compared to their work time, its more like pocket money.
Taking donations for a mod is out of scope of Terrain Pack, so any interference on that would be ill advised.
However, asking the modders and fans of the mod to donate to Terrain Pack is completely valid and fair.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Starving Poet on November 26, 2019, 04:38:35 pm
Hobbes, this is a serious question - but does it bother you that I get income from twitch when playing your maps in OXC?  If so, why?  If not, also why?

I understand that it's your creation, but the same modders with donation links are also using work from many other creators - You, Robyn, Yankes, Meridian, Ohartenstein, Me, Warboy, Sup, Daiky, etc etc etc. 

We had this same argument with another, new modder who wanted to make his work private and it's understandable - but no one here is selling their work, or any of the assets. 


Also as to your original post, nowhere does it say you are taking submissions for new maps in either the openxcom.mod.io page or the forum entry.  So, trying to guilt us because we couldn't read your mind and figure out your intentions isn't fair at all.

/edit: for clarification - not monetary submissions - that you were interesting in people submitting their maps for inclusion in your modpack.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 26, 2019, 05:05:41 pm
Also as to your original post, nowhere does it say you are taking submissions for new maps in either the openxcom.mod.io page or the forum entry.  So, trying to guilt us because we couldn't read your mind and figure out your intentions isn't fair at all.

Precisely. I never took donations, and to me it's that a question related to my own personal values. And I posted my considerations to confirm how they are similar or different from the community. I apologize if you felt I was trying to guilt you, but I spoke what I feel at this point, and tried to use it to make people reflect a bit about all of this.

And after some serious reflection, I've decided to change the permissions of my work in the Terrain Pack, Area 51 and Tech-Comm, from now onwards as this:

I do not allow anymore for any of my original files to be used and published in mods made by other authors for OpenXCom.


As such, I'll remove all non-original content from my mods that I don't have specific permission to use by their authors as quickly as possible. I expect all other modders to do the same.

And I will check future releases in the mod portal for compliance with my rights as an author. And if they are disrespected, I'll report the situation to the administrators and ask them to remove those mods.

I will continue to make the Terrain Pack available for players to use, and as such modders can request that players download and install the Terrain Pack separately, if they consider it required for their mods.

This way I feel my rights are respected, and other modders can ask for donations as much as they want, because they're not doing it anymore while using my original files in their work.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: wcho035 on November 26, 2019, 06:31:14 pm
guilt us because we couldn't read your mind and figure out your intentions isn't fair at all.

I sympathized Hobbes feeling on this matter. Unfortunately, accusation of this kind will never be constructive or is helpful at all.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: bulletdesigner on November 26, 2019, 08:09:58 pm
Well i agree, it´s your creations, and you want to claim it, moving on. Can i buy the rights to use some part´s? Shortcut´s me some work that i will end up doing anyway.. and by wasting time i will  just pay for something already done. Win win for both
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Solarius Scorch on November 26, 2019, 09:12:50 pm
I have removed all original terrains from the Terrain Pack in XCF. I'll give it a bit more time to make sure, but it is more or less done.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Yankes on November 26, 2019, 09:23:33 pm
Precisely. I never took donations, and to me it's that a question related to my own personal values. And I posted my considerations to confirm how they are similar or different from the community. I apologize if you felt I was trying to guilt you, but I spoke what I feel at this point, and tried to use it to make people reflect a bit about all of this.

And after some serious reflection, I've decided to change the permissions of my work in the Terrain Pack, Area 51 and Tech-Comm, from now onwards as this:

I do not allow anymore for any of my original files to be used and published in mods made by other authors for OpenXCom.


As such, I'll remove all non-original content from my mods that I don't have specific permission to use by their authors as quickly as possible. I expect all other modders to do the same.

And I will check future releases in the mod portal for compliance with my rights as an author. And if they are disrespected, I'll report the situation to the administrators and ask them to remove those mods.

I will continue to make the Terrain Pack available for players to use, and as such modders can request that players download and install the Terrain Pack separately, if they consider it required for their mods.

This way I feel my rights are respected, and other modders can ask for donations as much as they want, because they're not doing it anymore while using my original files in their work.
Do you allow do letsplays of your mods? The will have lot more donation than any modder that use your mods. And they contribute nothing back.

Another thing, for what donations are for? Mod? No I can grab it for free. More the work they did and will do. You could be right if any thing they did was simply "assert flip" but they mods are many times bigger and have lot of unique content. Then what if after they remove your work they still get same amount of donations? Would it mean that your point was incorrect? Funny would be if they would get more now than previously. Only in case when they will stop getting any thing your concern could be valid.

Overall similar situation is with Red Hat, they "sell" linux operating systems, this mean every one who contributed to linux is "used" by them.
But in FOSS this is not problem or even it is very good thing, because you can use all Red Hat work without paying them (Centos).
I think same model could be used in OXC mod community.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: robin on November 26, 2019, 10:34:08 pm
I don't accept donations either. And I guess I'm "on your side": I'm not enthusiastic about monetization***.
I like when things are clear: commercial or non-commercial. OpenXCom is afaik non-commercial, so everything that spawns from it should stay the same, without misunderstandings.
There is also the legal issue. I'm clueless about this stuff, but we're "using" a trademark (or more than one) owned by someone else, so it might be risky: I don't want the community to be bombarded by Cease&Desist notices because the situation got out of hand.
But, as Yankes said, people monetize from youtube Let's Plays and you can do nothing about it, while modders do contribute something to the community. So I don't know if a stance like yours really makes sense all things considered (I mean no offense by saying this, just an honest thought).
I'm currently letting people use my assets (ofc strictly only for OXC modding) with the simple request that they're tweaked enough to show that the modder put in some the effort, and not simply copy-pasted them in his mod. I myself won't turn a blind eye to blatant exploitation (even though I can't really do much about it other than calling people out).

All that said, I respect your decision. I don't think I'm using anything from your mods (used a mapScript at some point but now not anymore). Please warn me if you notice something, I'll remove it as quickly as I can.

***Poor wording from me here as "donations" and "monetization" can be very different things. The sentence should be interpreted as "I don't agree with the idea of taking donations for a mod."
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 26, 2019, 10:45:06 pm
Do you allow do letsplays of your mods? The will have lot more donation than any modder that use your mods. And they contribute nothing back.

Another thing, for what donations are for? Mod? No I can grab it for free. More the work they did and will do. You could be right if any thing they did was simply "assert flip" but they mods are many times bigger and have lot of unique content. Then what if after they remove your work they still get same amount of donations? Would it mean that your point was incorrect? Funny would be if they would get more now than previously. Only in case when they will stop getting any thing your concern could be valid.

Overall similar situation is with Red Hat, they "sell" linux operating systems, this mean every one who contributed to linux is "used" by them.
But in FOSS this is not problem or even it is very good thing, because you can use all Red Hat work without paying them (Centos).
I think same model could be used in OXC mod community.

I'm not interested in discussing whether donations are commercial. That leads nowhere because I have my own opinion (they are), and that's the only one that matters when I'm deciding my rights as an author. If you don't respect it, then stop using my work. End of discussion.

The only person who ever asked me to do a Let's Play was Meridian, and I authorized it knowing that he uses Patreon because it's Meridian and he has done a ton (like you) for this project. I haven't considered the possibility of Let's Play or streams in the future but it will solved. And with my rights being respected as I choose, not according to someone's opinion of how modders should act.

Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 26, 2019, 11:00:22 pm
Well i agree, it´s your creations, and you want to claim it, moving on. Can i buy the rights to use some part´s? Shortcut´s me some work that i will end up doing anyway.. and by wasting time i will  just pay for something already done. Win win for both

The Terrain Pack is a stand alone mod, so you can make it a requirement to use with your mod. And with a little coding magic you can also deactivate the parts that you don't want to use.

As for the assets contained in Area 51/TechComm, those are off-limits for now.

TechComm contains several of your assets (Osprey, Jeep, etc.), I'll remove them from future versions, and everything else I can find in Area 51/TechComm.

Right now my priority is to make my mods clean of any third party content made for OXC. Until that is done, I will not authorize use of any of their assets to ensure that I have the right and authorizations to decide over them.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 26, 2019, 11:24:14 pm
I don't accept donations either. And I guess I'm "on your side": I'm not enthusiastic about monetization***.
I like when things are clear: commercial or non-commercial. OpenXCom is afaik non-commercial, so everything that spawns from it should stay the same, without misunderstandings.
There is also the legal issue. I'm clueless about this stuff, but we're "using" a trademark (or more than one) owned by someone else, so it might be risky: I don't want the community to be bombarded by Cease&Desist notices because the situation got out of hand.
But, as Yankes said, people monetize from youtube Let's Plays and you can do nothing about it, while modders do contribute something to the community. So I don't know if a stance like yours really makes sense all things considered (I mean no offense by saying this, just an honest thought).
I'm currently letting people use my assets (ofc strictly only for OXC modding) with the simple request that they're tweaked enough to show that the modder put in some the effort, and not simply copy-pasted them in his mod. I myself won't turn a blind eye to blatant exploitation (even though I can't really do much about it other than calling people out).

All that said, I respect your decision. I don't think I'm using anything from your mods (used a mapScript at some point but now not anymore). Please warn me if you notice something, I'll remove it as quickly as I can.

***Poor wording from me here as "donations" and "monetization" can be very different things. The sentence should be interpreted as "I don't agree with the idea of taking donations for a mod."

I say this: don't worry with the legal issues with the XCom IP.

SupSuper has been to Firaxis and met with the developers. Firaxis has official mod support since X2 and were always accepting of mods for their games. If they wanted to shut us down they would have done a long time ago. And it seems to me that the gaming industry in general is much more accepting of mods because a ton of factors, and XCom is particularly lucky of having a long established modding tradition. During UFO2000 we feared that the IP owner (which was unclear who was) would pull the plug on us, and we took steps to replace all original xcom content for that propose, but it never happened. This can change in the future, but not in the near one. And even if their policy changes, we can all still keep the stuff we have and mod in our computers - that they can't take away from us :)

And the same applies to this situation. I'll check but I'm not gonna be policing other people's mods all the time for my content. But I do hope that people become more aware of the rights and usage issues.

BTW: I also got stuff from you in Area 51 (not the TP) but I need to check it first and I'll inform you later.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Yankes on November 27, 2019, 01:03:09 am
I'm not interested in discussing whether donations are commercial. That leads nowhere because I have my own opinion (they are), and that's the only one that matters when I'm deciding my rights as an author.
I only ask to reconsider this. Everyone here is grown adult and respect your decision, all your offenders are now in processes of deleting your work from theirs mods.

But IMHO this will be harmful in long run for whole community.

If you don't respect it, then stop using my work. End of discussion.
But this is other way around, I not mod author and I dont use your mods, but you use OXC or OXCE and in both are parts I write and I'm author of them.
I could theoretically ask you to do same. And what will result? SupSuper will ask me to stop using his work in OXCE, and then Warboy ask SupSuper to remove his work from OXC.

Overall result will be that only solution is delete whole OXC/OXCE and disband this community.

Quote from: Yankes
But IMHO this will be harmful in long run for whole community.

Good thing is that I fully committed to GNU General Public License, anyone can use my work without any permission as long he follow GPL.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 27, 2019, 03:13:26 am
But IMHO this will be harmful in long run for whole community.

This was a ticking bomb waiting to explode... tick... tack... tick... tack...
* What would happen next time one of those mods decided to ask for more donations without even bothering to ask all contributors if they accept it?
* Are people who contribute are informed of this policy beforehand?
* And if the donations are small or even nothing, like I was told personally in more than one occasion, why are they choosing to keep them, when they could have all my content for free if they stick to non-commercial?

The list of unanswered questions could on... the point is, one day this would end.

And in the long run? That depends entirely on how those mods now. If they're determined to go the donations path, then they'll find a way to replace my content with their own original one, and they actually become more unique, instead of sharing most of their terrains with several other major mods. Or not.

Quote
But this is other way around, I not mod author and I dont use your mods, but you use OXC or OXCE and in both are parts I write and I'm author of them.
I could theoretically ask you to do same. And what will result? SupSuper will ask me to stop using his work in OXCE, and then Warboy ask SupSuper to remove his work from OXC.

Overall result will be that only solution is delete whole OXC/OXCE and disband this community.

Good thing is that I fully committed to GNU General Public License, anyone can use my work without any permission as long he follow GPL.

I am not preventing anyone to use the Terrain Pack, the same way that you're not preventing anyone from using OXCE.

I know I can keep using OXCE but if you so desire, I'll stop using it immediately and revert Area 51 back to OXC. And if OXC wants me to leave, I'll leave as well. So I don't understand the theoretical point that you're trying to make here. Do you want me to leave?

Isn't that the whole point of a free community? To not have your freedom limited by others and not to limit their freedom? And to stay there by your choice and not by force, being free to leave when you choose, if circumstances change?

So many questions...
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: wcho035 on November 27, 2019, 04:40:07 am
Hobbes, from the comments I read till now, you are standing at the edge of the tipping point. It is sad to see the weight of guilt being pushed on you and anymore isn’t going to be easier. If the community is more sympathetic, the outcome may have been different. Still, it will be sorry to see you leave.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 27, 2019, 05:23:39 am
Hobbes, from the comments I read till now, you are standing at the edge of the tipping point. It is sad to see the weight of guilt being pushed on you and anymore isn’t going to be easier. If the community is more sympathetic, the outcome may have been different. Still, it will be sorry to see you leave.

I do not understand you: are you trying to make me leave?
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: wcho035 on November 27, 2019, 06:11:07 am
No, I am saying the community should be more sympathetic to your situation.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 27, 2019, 06:18:22 am
No, I am saying the community should be more sympathetic to your situation.

They are more than enough. :)

But thank you for your concern.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: X-Man on November 27, 2019, 06:28:23 am
Oh, man... And all this shit around as always grows from human greed and envy.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 27, 2019, 06:43:55 am
Oh, man... And all this shit around as always grows from human greed and envy.

It grew from a series of miscommunications between the parties involved that finally reached a breaking point.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Lord_Kane on November 27, 2019, 07:02:05 am
Well after a few hours of SHEER PANIC in order to verify that none of my 2 released mods and my 3 indev mods dont have material from your mod.

I can safely say that they don't, even my remix of reavers megamod...(unless I missed something)

I can actually sympathize with you on this Hobbes, when I started modding here I always would ask permission, ask Nord, Chaosshade and Starving Poet to name a few.

I will make sure to credit you on future material you release with the appropriate permissions.
and if and when you ever re-release the terrain pack it will be used as a dependency with credits and instructions to download and enable it.

Best of luck to you Hobbes.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: michal on November 27, 2019, 09:45:18 am
Just a random thought. Maybe mods should have specific licenses?
To avoid similar situations in future.

For example, i guess for Terrain Pack, most appropriate would be CC NC SA:
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

(I'm not saying Hobbes should license his mods under this license, i'm just giving example)
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: X-Man on November 27, 2019, 10:01:39 am
Okay, lets found "The International Agency of Mod Licencing" (IAML for short) right here and right now!
The first question, my dear comrades, is to choose the Board. Offer your candidates!
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: misterx on November 27, 2019, 12:19:01 pm
I really agree with michal, such mod should have a CC licence,in fact it's very important for the creration of other works by the modders, otherwise each mod would have its terrains, tha would be a load of work
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: betatester on November 27, 2019, 12:51:30 pm
First I love your work and I recognize all the work you have done.
AFAIK Terrain Pack isn't compatible with FMP but FMP has a modified version of it in it that is compatible. So will you release a version of your mod compatible with other mods/megamods ?
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Meridian on November 27, 2019, 01:04:40 pm
AFAIK Terrain Pack isn't compatible with FMP but FMP has a modified version of it in it that is compatible. So will you release a version of your mod compatible with other mods/megamods ?

That's not how it works.

Hobbes cannot release a version compatible with other mods.

Other modders would need to release their mods compatible with terrain pack. But that's practically impossible (both by openxcom engine limitations and by practicality of the mod implementation and installation). Terrain pack is effectively a standalone mod incompatible with every other mod from now on.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Ethereal on November 27, 2019, 01:43:32 pm
First, I want to thank the author of the Terrain Pack for his gigantic work.

My mod uses the Terrain Pack of a very old version. No changes made. I never thought that everything would be so serious. The author can familiarize himself with my mod and https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5724.msg119911.html#msg119911 if he decides that his rights are violated, I undertake to correct everything according to the requirements of the author.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: R1dO on November 27, 2019, 02:39:14 pm
@Ethereal.

Since Hobbes already stated his assets are off-limit you can safely assume that if you use the Terrain Pack you have to take steps to correct it, no need to ask him to familiarize first.

Also, have you considered the idea you might be one of the modders that sparked this reaction?

I downloaded the last 2 versions of your mod (from https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5724.msg107718.html#msg107718 and https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5724.msg119911.html#msg119911). Neither one (nor the forum thread) credits any other mod for as far as i can see, while clearly using assets from them.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 27, 2019, 04:13:55 pm
Just a random thought. Maybe mods should have specific licenses?
To avoid similar situations in future.

For example, i guess for Terrain Pack, most appropriate would be CC NC SA:
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

(I'm not saying Hobbes should license his mods under this license, i'm just giving example)

It's not the first time I've considered such a license, but the issue has always been that I am not the author of all the assets in the TP since 4-5 were written by other UFO2000 authors.

Besides, if people want to abuse they don't care if it has a CC license or not. I've seen blatant theft such as my 700 page XCom fan fiction being posted in a site, chapter after chapter, by another guy claiming to be the author.

And the only thing that stops that kind of abuse is vigilance, licenses mean nothing, when the modder that is using my TP/A51 terrains has this kind of attitude when I tell him I don't accept donations.

And here's a few things that the person that created this whole issue said to me when I asked him for explanations and told him that I refuse my work to be used for donations without even asking for permission and exercised my rights as an author:

"You are credited, so if they want to send money as thanks for YOUR part of the job, they're free to do so."

"But if you want to, I question your motives on why you have entered the modding scene in the first place."

"you're basically trying to destroy the community. I will honor your request... up to the point where you can half-seriously claim "autorship", since most of your work is based on other people's work, let's not pretend."

"I don't throw away people's gifts because some lunatic whose work I used according to the free sharing traditions of the modding scene had a rabid bout of greed and envy."

"I will also personally no longer consider you a honorable member of the modding scene."

"No. If the modification/improvement outweights original work to the point it is no longer the same thing, I won't remove them. I will honor your request only to the reasonable extent."


From this exchange I learned the following:
1) This person has ZERO appreciation for other people's work and thinks that other modders are there to serve his wishes.
2) This person has NO idea of the work I put into creating those terrains and thinks I just copied things around.
3) If left unchecked, this person will continue to use it in an abusive manner and against the author's wishes.
4) This person thinks he owns somebody's else's work just because he changed it.

And if it is inconvenient for every, this is what happens when trust is broken. I trusted modders in the community would respect my wishes, and I never needed licenses. Since I can't trust that anymore, because 1 person doesn't respect my rights as an author, then I will control my original files.

Otherwise, and after this incident, I have no doubt that one day I'd see a half-baked game being sold as an app that uses the terrains I created.

That's not how it works.

Hobbes cannot release a version compatible with other mods.

Other modders would need to release their mods compatible with terrain pack. But that's practically impossible (both by openxcom engine limitations and by practicality of the mod implementation and installation). Terrain pack is effectively a standalone mod incompatible with every other mod from now on.

Glad you joined in, since I have a few technical questions.

I've been working a lot in .json rulesets for another game and one of the things it allows is to perform merges across mods.

With .yaml is it possible to load the Terrain Pack first, and then modders perform whatever changes they want on it on their mods through rulesets?

Also, one of the things I'm thinking going to add to the .rul file are yaml anchors, so that other mods only need to specify the TP anchor (maps, mapDataSets) if they want to use those resources in derivative terrains.

Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Meridian on November 27, 2019, 04:45:15 pm
I've been working a lot in .json rulesets for another game and one of the things it allows is to perform merges across mods.
With .yaml is it possible to load the Terrain Pack first, and then modders perform whatever changes they want on it on their mods through rulesets?

No, the player would have to specify the correct load order of mods manually.
Also, with 2 dependent mods there is (fortunately?) always a solution... but as soon as you consider 3 mods or more, the solution might not even exist.

Also, openxcom does not support any kind of ruleset attribute merging (with very few exceptions not relevant to the general discussion), only full attribute replacement is supported.
If a modder wants to do any change to your ruleset (e.g. list of terrains for a deployment or texture), they have no other choice than to copy it and modify it.

Also, one of the things I'm thinking going to add to the .rul file are yaml anchors, so that other mods only need to specify the TP anchor (maps, mapDataSets) if they want to use those resources in derivative terrains.

Not supported at all.

3) This person thinks he owns somebody's else's work just because he changed it.

I honestly hope you will use the same rules for your derived work too.

For example, you don't own anything derived from TFTD (or UFO for that matter).
Just because you changed it, doesn't mean it's yours.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Mathel on November 27, 2019, 05:05:27 pm
I do not mod OXC, nor OXCE, but this makes me worried.

I do believe that, if no licence is specified in the mod upload, Hobbes does have the right to stop others from using his mod and assets.

But on the other hand, if everyone did this, the larger mods would collapse.
I have read credits in the files of both XPiratez and XCom Files. They are long.
As it stands many maps in the mods will already have to be replaced.
What happens if Falko decides tommorow, that he/she does not want people to use their "disassembling alien clips and explosives for Elerium"?
Or if any of the other contributor decides to hold back what they made?

To prevent this collapse, I'd introduce two rules.
A) By uploading a mod, one would agree to a specific licence, one that would allow free copying and use. This would require purging previously uploaded all mods, which were not uploaded under this licence.
B) No asking for donations in mods themselves. What they do in other places is up to them, but modders should not ask for money inside their mods.
       My reasoning for this is: Yes, we are not required to pay them to play this mod. But we also do not nescessarily know how much is original content. It would be unfair it if one mod was a copy of another, with just a section added asking for donations.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 27, 2019, 05:42:05 pm
No, the player would have to specify the correct load order of mods manually.
Also, with 2 dependent mods there is (fortunately?) always a solution... but as soon as you consider 3 mods or more, the solution might not even exist.

Also, openxcom does not support any kind of ruleset attribute merging (with very few exceptions not relevant to the general discussion), only full attribute replacement is supported.
If a modder wants to do any change to your ruleset (e.g. list of terrains for a deployment or texture), they have no other choice than to copy it and modify it.

Not supported at all.

Thanks for the explanations. The loading order is exactly what I expected, the yaml anchors is unfortunate, but if that's how it works, that's how it works.

I'm perfectly aware that if I'm establishing a standard, I'm the first one who should follow it. But it's never inappropriate to remind people of this.

Quote
For example, you don't own anything derived from TFTD (or UFO for that matter).
Just because you changed it, doesn't mean it's yours.

Everything that is staying to the Terrain Pack, that's derived work or other author's work, and properly identified and credited. This includes all the Geoscape terrains I created out of the UFO/TFTD originals, the Island/Port/Ship terror sites and UFO2000 terrains, and the modified Geoscape I edited for everything to work (that's derivative work). It also includes all the rulesets and additional assets required for the new Geoscape to work, which I mostly coded or created myself, with the individual contributions also already properly identified.

This is all derivative from the originals (a.k.a. mods). But the alterations done were all made for me. And I do not allow the modified files I made to be used in other mods anymore. Either use the Terrain Pack, or spend hundreds of hours modifying the original files as I did. 

Everything that is staying in Area 51, that's original work. With the individual contributions made by other authors also properly identified and checked. Terrains like Area 51 or Complex are also derivative from the originals, and several still use the original MCD files. But I created all the other files required (MCDs, PCKs, MAP, RMP), which are about 1000 or more files. Plus I designed the layout of all those maps, and I designed all the route files used by the AI, and I designed several dozen unique tilesets for them, plus all of the rulesets to make it work.

So I consider those terrains as originals of mine, with the proper collaborations identified and credited (tileset images). And I do not allow anymore for any derivative works to be made and used of them. Either install the mod, or create your own.

And anyone says that these terrains are derived from somebody else's work, that person is gonna have a hell of a time to prove it.

And if people are pissed that all the work they put into those derivative works can't be used anymore:
a) Respect the author's wishes
b) Create your own material instead of simply copying and modifying other authors
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: X-Man on November 27, 2019, 06:30:02 pm
Or if any of the other contributor decides to hold back what they made?

Yes. This is exactly the main goal.
Do you think this person lived in a vacuum and didn't know about any kind of donations? Of course not! At least the topics about it here on the forum have been sticked since a very-very long time. It's a known fact.

Again. No one - NO ONE - sell their mods, and as far as I know some people, they will never do such thing. All donations are voluntary. It is such trivial thing at nowadays, so I'm in some kind of a stupor about all this hype around.

I love OXC, some mods and admire the titanic work behind it. Such a conflict bothers me, because I'm pretty sure that it will push the wave of negativity (already pushed actually) through all the community. Everyone will start to "protect their rights", and this will discourage almost everyone of mod makers, this will destroy the product line in some way. Are you sure you want such a collapse? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 27, 2019, 06:49:39 pm
And anyone says that these terrains are derived from somebody else's work, that person is gonna have a hell of a time to prove it.
I´m pretty sure its the other way around. As you´d be the accuser ("you derived your stuff from mine"), you´d have to prove your claim.

Quote
This is all derivative from the originals (a.k.a. mods). But the alterations done were all made for me.
...
Create your own material instead of simply copying and modifying other authors
Not even sure how to comment on that.
"Don't use my mod. Don't mod my mod. Create original content instead." Yet this is all about a mod, created by you.
Prime example why copyright and mods don't really mix.

One day I´m gonna copyright "Copyright" and just not gonna let anyone use it.
Ah drat, there´s prior art already.  :'(
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 27, 2019, 07:03:40 pm
Yes. This is exactly the main goal.
Do you think this person lived in a vacuum and didn't know about any kind of donations? Of course not! At least the topics about it here on the forum have been sticked since a very-very long time. It's a known fact.

I was never properly informed when they decided to ask for donations, which they did long after those mods started using my files.

It was not my duty as the author to check every mod who uses them for policy changes regarding donations - it was their responsibility.

And they chose not to ask if I was OK with this, even though I had the right as an author to be informed and they had the duty to do so before enacting any changes.

And if this issue about donations is so widespread, why didn't they act before something like this happened?
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 27, 2019, 07:09:02 pm
"Don't use my mod. Don't mod my mod. Create original content instead." Yet this is all about a mod, created by you.
Prime example why copyright and mods don't really mix.

Copyright and authorship are two different things.

Have I ever mentioned copyright throughout this entire thread?

No, because the issue here is proper use and credit of the assets created. And there are plenty of guidelines already used by modding sites precisely to protect those.
 https://help.nexusmods.com/article/18-terms-of-service (https://help.nexusmods.com/article/18-terms-of-service)

Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Meridian on November 27, 2019, 07:12:16 pm
Everything that is staying to the Terrain Pack, that's derived work or other author's work, and properly identified and credited. This includes all the Geoscape terrains I created out of the UFO/TFTD originals, the Island/Port/Ship terror sites and UFO2000 terrains, and the modified Geoscape I edited for everything to work (that's derivative work). It also includes all the rulesets and additional assets required for the new Geoscape to work, which I mostly coded or created myself, with the individual contributions also already properly identified.

This is all derivative from the originals (a.k.a. mods). But the alterations done were all made for me. And I do not allow the modified files I made to be used in other mods anymore. Either use the Terrain Pack, or spend hundreds of hours modifying the original files as I did. 

Everything that is staying in Area 51, that's original work. With the individual contributions made by other authors also properly identified and checked. Terrains like Area 51 or Complex are also derivative from the originals, and several still use the original MCD files. But I created all the other files required (MCDs, PCKs, MAP, RMP), which are about 1000 or more files. Plus I designed the layout of all those maps, and I designed all the route files used by the AI, and I designed several dozen unique tilesets for them, plus all of the rulesets to make it work.

So I consider those terrains as originals of mine, with the proper collaborations identified and credited (tileset images). And I do not allow anymore for any derivative works to be made and used of them. Either install the mod, or create your own.

And anyone says that these terrains are derived from somebody else's work, that person is gonna have a hell of a time to prove it.

And if people are pissed that all the work they put into those derivative works can't be used anymore:
a) Respect the author's wishes
b) Create your own material instead of simply copying and modifying other authors

I don't want to start any disputes, I am just stating the obvious... and actually using the same words as you are.

I fully respect author's rights to his original work... we have a lot of people with 100% original content here... robin, bulletdesigner, XOPs, etc.
Including you.
But by far not all work you did resulted in original content... and you cannot make any claims to non-original content. Just like you require it from everyone else.

Consider the attached image from mod.io from Area51 mod.
Anyone who looks at this sees this is 95% TFTD... and there is no need to prove anything. It's obvious.

As you said, and I quote: "This person thinks he owns somebody's else's work just because he changed it."

You do not own the work and the original content of Microprose, just because you changed it.
Format conversion in any form or shape does not produce original content.
Cosmetic changes also do not produce original content.

Do not use the same arguments as "this person", otherwise you are no better than him.

This was my last comment to this topic, I'll let SupSuper and Warboy judge any conflicts between you guys, I want nothing to do with this... I hope they will see the world with open eyes, and that nobody gets any preferential treatment over anyone else. Fair is fair! Author's rights should be respected, false claims should be ignored (and punished if necessary).
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 27, 2019, 07:17:07 pm
Copyright and authorship are two different things.
Authorship is meaningless. Except that the author holds copyright, unless a contract (or TOS) exists that transfers it to someone else (e.g. commissioned work or employment etc)

EDIT: to clarify, I don't mean "meaningless" per se, just in the context of restricting use.
If you author an article and it gets published, you can't restrict its usage anymore just because you´re the author, since you gave away copyright when publishing.
(not by publishing itself, but its always required, for exactly that reason)
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 27, 2019, 07:19:05 pm
You do not own the work and the original content of Microprose, just because you changed it.
Format conversion in any form or shape does not produce original content.
Cosmetic changes also do not produce original content.

When I mean original content, I mean this:
(https://image.mod.io/mods/58a2/192/3e1o5ck.png)

(https://image.mod.io/mods/58a2/192/2s9cmyd.png)

(https://image.mod.io/mods/58a2/192/d1ktkkq.png)

(https://image.mod.io/mods/58a2/192/fcgczfo.png)

All my original creations.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 27, 2019, 07:20:30 pm
Authorship is meaningless. Except that the author holds copyright, unless a contract (or TOS) exists that transfers it to someone else (e.g. commissioned work or employment etc)

I disagree. Authorship is always recognized, that's a basic right of every author and recognized legally, even when copyright changes.

If authorship wasn't recognized, do you honestly think that creators would bother creating and sharing stuff?
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: X-Man on November 27, 2019, 07:40:38 pm
Now it is obviously to me, that someone doesn't know the principal difference between selling a product and donating as a gratitude. And the whole responsibility for each. Maybe it's because of overwhelming greed or just a lack of wisdom... I only hope that consequences of such action are awared.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 27, 2019, 07:44:00 pm
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors%27_rights
Quote
Authors’ rights have two distinct components: the economic rights in the work and the moral rights of the author.
Economic rights are ownership (copyright).
On moral rights: "typically includes the right to be identified as the author of the work and the right to object to any distortion or mutilation of the work which would be prejudicial to his or her honor or reputation".
So ye you have moral rights on your work. But to restrict usage of it (unless derived work would slander your reputation) you have to employ copyright.

Quote
If authorship wasn't recognized, do you honestly think that creators would bother creating and sharing stuff?
Yes i think that. Many people just like creating for creations sake, and for having other people enjoy it.
On the other side, if noone would create/share without putting their name under it, wouldn't that mean everybody just does it for recognition?
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Mathel on November 27, 2019, 09:25:20 pm
I spoilered the images up to take up less space
When I mean original content, I mean this:
(https://image.mod.io/mods/58a2/192/3e1o5ck.png)

(https://image.mod.io/mods/58a2/192/2s9cmyd.png)

(https://image.mod.io/mods/58a2/192/d1ktkkq.png)

(https://image.mod.io/mods/58a2/192/fcgczfo.png)
All my original creations.
I thought you created your own stuff.

Here is a reply to the first image.
(https://imgur.com/VucPsca.png)
This is the first image, what I remembered to be from elsewhere, I circled. I circled it the same color in the place where it is from.
(https://imgur.com/PoMXkZm.png)
This is TFTD, unmodded, Port attack
(https://imgur.com/cmV4ebM.png)
The same port attack, different location
(https://imgur.com/4bn9gOW.png)
UFO Defence, forest

I will not say there is no new content. That would be untrue.
But there is also TFTD and UD content, sometimes recolored or flipped.
I ask you: Do you claim authorship of that as well?
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Yankes on November 27, 2019, 09:30:14 pm
I know I can keep using OXCE but if you so desire, I'll stop using it immediately and revert Area 51 back to OXC. And if OXC wants me to leave, I'll leave as well. So I don't understand the theoretical point that you're trying to make here. Do you want me to leave?
Do you read my conclusion? IF I did that I would f*** up whole community, that is my point, and I do not want do something stupid like this.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: robin on November 27, 2019, 09:47:02 pm
100% original content here... robin
For the record I use a bunch (like 4-5) of sound effects taken from other mods (Piratez iirc).
Also I checked my MCDs and in my oldest tilestes I have about of half a dozen of tiles that I might want to make more distinct from vanilla (meaning they're only partially redrawn, unlike all the rest). Will definitely redraw them properly.
Just a clarification :)
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Meridian on November 27, 2019, 09:58:57 pm
Sorry, poorly formulated by me.

I meant that you have (a lot of) content that is 100% original (i.e. made from scratch).
Not that 100% of your mod is original... I could not say this about any mod without spending an eternity checking all files :)
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 27, 2019, 11:29:03 pm
I spoilered the images up to take up less spaceI thought you created your own stuff.

Here is a reply to the first image.
(https://imgur.com/VucPsca.png)
This is the first image, what I remembered to be from elsewhere, I circled. I circled it the same color in the place where it is from.
(https://imgur.com/PoMXkZm.png)
This is TFTD, unmodded, Port attack
(https://imgur.com/cmV4ebM.png)
The same port attack, different location
(https://imgur.com/4bn9gOW.png)
UFO Defence, forest

I will not say there is no new content. That would be untrue.
But there is also TFTD and UD content, sometimes recolored or flipped.
I ask you: Do you claim authorship of that as well?
I´ve researched that topic for hours, if those screenshots would fall under microprose, OXCE or hobbes rights.
For all possible cases (original game, partially modded, 100% modded content/0% vanilla assets) there is no definitive answer.
Not that this brings this discussion any further. It just deeply boggles my mind... Complicated matter.
(varies between US/EU legislation and always is on a case per case basis)
However, that would make it not even 100% sure that you could post screenshots of your own mod, if you really wanna take that stuff serious.
(Granted, in most cases this is seen as definitely tolerated and within fair use rights)

Any case, this does **** up a lot of things that were a lot better before.
And for what?
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: davide on November 28, 2019, 12:02:13 am
I do not like this disaster :'(
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 28, 2019, 12:15:22 am
Unfortunately that changes nothing for the mods.
But its very clear that the spirit of OpenXcom implies that mods should be open source (and maybe GPL) as well.
Sounds like a thing OXCE could demand/enforce on the mods. But I don't have the slightest clue if thats a good idea or not.
(Would have saved us this disaster though)
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: efrenespartano on November 28, 2019, 12:17:17 am
I'm slightly confused. What does this mean?

Enviado desde mi LG-M400 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: R1dO on November 28, 2019, 12:26:14 am
I´ve researched that topic for hours,
...
Any case, this does **** up a lot of things that were a lot better before.
And for what?


@TheCurse
Complicated it is indeed, if only because the lines between original content and derivatives are blurred at best.

And yes this episode does bring shockwaves across the community at the moment, but i have the uttermost confidence we will eventually come out stronger.
For the most part we are a mature bunch of people that will find a way to deal with those issues. As is demonstrated by your efforts to research into the topic and the confidence to write down this is a problem you cannot give a definite answer to.

P.s. I wouldn't worry to much about screenshots. As you already said they are under fair use rights. An impression of what to expect, not a major component of your mod.

--- edit---
@efrenespartano
The openxcom code (and executables?) are released under GPL. This does not mean however that assets (mod files) are released under the same license. It does not mean that the GPL license applies to mods as well. Hence the conclusion of TheCurse that it "changes nothing for the mods".
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hythlodaeus on November 28, 2019, 12:51:20 am
Hello everyone,

I've recently noticed what has been happening around these parts and I've decided to chip in my brief experience with modding for OXC in hopes it will at least benefit others.

I must start by saying that it's never easy being a modder. I've only done minimal mods myself for OXC, but I've modded extensively for other games, and I can understand it is tough not having your work recognized and appreciated as often as it should be. If your mod gets popular to the point of becoming a foundation for other mods, you even risk having others taking credit for your work. Modding communities have been founded on the principle of sharing knowledge and giving credit to original authors, but growing communities often find their initial code of etiquette forgotten amid ever increasing numbers of content being produced by new people joining in.

From my experience as a modder one valuable lesson that I've learned, is that in order to keep your work under control, and other people to be respectful of it, clear and concise licensing must be a responsibility of every modder from the start. Establishing clear limits of what can and cannot be done with your art, where you derivative work begins and where someone else's work you modified ends is absolutely crucial.

Now, I'm the author of a fairly popular, if relatively simple mod used in a bunch of other modifications, notably the Amiga/PSX fonts mod. This mod was conceived from an original font found in the Amiga version of X-COM and it was extensively modified by me to support triple the amount of characters it originally did, along with modifying the original characters too for improved readability, What I determined from that point was the following:

a) the fontset was not actually an original part of x-com as it was present in some versions of the Amiga OS before the game existed.
b) tried as I might (and I searched a lot, and sent emails to forgotten Amiga devs) I could find no hint on who created the font or if any company had the rights for it, from which I presumed the content to be abandoned.
c) the extent of my work made upon the original font was enough that I could consider it to become a derivative piece of its own right, as two thirds of the characters in the fontset were my own artistic view on how such a font style would behave with extended latin, Cyrillic, Greek characters, and some new symbols.

From this point I released my mod and I licensed it specifically under CC-BY-SA, but was still careful enough to acknowledge the original author was unknown and to thank him/her in the readme. Under these conditions people are allowed to use my mod for both commercial and non-commercial ends, but they are always obliged to 1) credit me 2) share any modifications of the file under the same terms. This means any people improving upon my work would have to be nice and share their creations while acknowledging all the authors they derived their work from. It also avoids any confusion, and forces authors to print a notice containing the license name under which the original mod was made, effectively maintaining the etiquette, even if profiting from my work, which to be honest, I think it should always be allowed.

A few months later I had the idea of creating a set of  HD backgrounds and replacement BigObs for special alien weapons, and proposed SupSuper to commission them to well-known X-Com fan artist Android Arts. Only the latter got made, but during the process I warned SupSuper these also had to be specifically licensed as part of the OXC project. The CC-BY-SA license was once again chosen, as it is directly compatible with the GPL, used in OXC code, and would allow the OpenXcom package to be distributed without any copyright terms associated. People can freely use these bigobs in their mods, but they always have to credit Android Arts for that.

The conclusion here is that licensing your works accordingly from the start will avoid a lot of trouble in the future, and will make the resolution of any conflicts that arise with other modders a simple matter of enforcing the license terms originally set. I hope you all manage to find a solution for this issue, and if I have one request for Hobbes is to please not distrust other modders who have also put a fair share of work on their own creations, even if using yours as part of it. We're all in this boat together trying to make modding X-Com a wonderful experience for everyone. Let's all work out a solution that benefits all.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hythlodaeus on November 28, 2019, 01:03:41 am
Oh and I must also add one further comment regarding the role of licensing, given I've seen expressed disbelief on their application: whether or not a license is made to be compliant is once again up to the responsibility of modders and it does at the very least give you legal and additional ethical footing to stand on. As of the moment the Terrain Mod Pack has no license and enforcing the terms now being specified by Hobbes is up to whether people actually comply or not to such a request, but should Hobbes want to pursue any legal action based on it, he may find himself lacking arguments there.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 28, 2019, 01:08:14 am
@TheCurse
Complicated it is indeed, if only because the lines between original content and derivatives are blurred at best.

And yes this episode does bring shockwaves across the community at the moment, but i have the uttermost confidence we will eventually come out stronger.
For the most part we are a mature bunch of people that will find a way to deal with those issues. As is demonstrated by your efforts to research into the topic and the confidence to write down this is a problem you cannot give a definite answer to.

P.s. I wouldn't worry to much about screenshots. As you already said they are under fair use rights. An impression of what to expect, not a major component of your mod.

--- edit---
@efrenespartano
The openxcom code (and executables?) are released under GPL. This does not mean however that assets (mod files) are released under the same license. It does not mean that the GPL license applies to mods as well. Hence the conclusion of TheCurse that it "changes nothing for the mods".
I think the best way to go ahead would be everyone using someones stuff to ask for explicit permission once&forever, unless you trust them enough they don't pull this shit...
And then someone needs to make a ****ton of maps to replace the former favorite map pack.
After that this should be resolved.

Quote
should Hobbes want to pursue any legal action based on it, he may find himself lacking arguments there.
No license means "can't use". Highly doubt he´d spend money on legal stuff though.
But if someone actually considers legal action in a modding community... well wtf would that be. Its so bizarre I´m not sure if to laugh or to cry about it...
Sure as hell though, that´d make a lof of people really, really pissed.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 28, 2019, 01:13:51 am
I ask you: Do you claim authorship of that as well?

This is the same as saying that the authors of OXC are claiming authorship over the original game, because they call themselves authors of OXC.

Who's the author of OXC then? The players? The modders? No one?
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 28, 2019, 02:12:47 am
This is the same as saying that the authors of OXC are claiming authorship over the original game, because they call themselves authors of OXC.
Nah, OXC is an engine. It does not include anything from the original game by default. Except in some parts it may behave very similar.

But as you mention it, i don't see many people "claim authorship" for stuff here.
Many create things with a lot of effort.
And people know who to thank if they want to, and who to talk to over features and bugs. And being part of a community.
But "claiming", as in "this content is mine and you have to ask if you use it, and even how you use it (how dare you to accept voluntary donations by fans of your mod)", nope, thats kinda rare here.
Usually is, in modding communities...

EDIT: in a creative community, emphasis ideally is "I did that", not "I did that". Subtle difference.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on November 28, 2019, 05:18:30 am
I will defend you in this, Hobbes. But I think the best solution is community and vigilance. I've seen a few examples of blatant theft here on the forums and our community members have rapidly recognized work claimed as original. Most mods use a lot of borrowed content these days. What I'd like to see more of is discussions on where things came from. Like in my mod, I know where I got the resources, but many of them I'm not sure where they originally came from. It would be nice for it to be public knowledge where most of these really popular resources come from and who made them.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: SupSuper on November 28, 2019, 07:07:55 am
I've been asked to weigh on this, I was waiting for discussion to die down so I could take in all the facts before making a statement, but it doesn't look like that's happening any time soon.

Serious sounding statement representing OpenXcom follows

Do what you want. We're not taking any sides on this or enforcing any restrictions at this time. OpenXcom waives any responsibility regarding what players do with it. We are fine with you creating OpenXcom-related content (mods, videos, guides, etc) for free, donations or otherwise. We're only required to do anything about content hosted on OpenXcom.org and Mod.io servers if lawyers come knocking. In fact, legally, you could sell OpenXcom for $10 on Steam tomorrow with all your own original content and be in the clear (so long as the code remains open-source).

We only ask that you respect creators' wishes to the best of your abilities when using their content, and we will do the same. Any disputes should preferably be solved privately between the parties and not by us. If you force our hand, you probably won't like it.

Content creators, if you have concerns over how your content is used, attribution, remixing, etc, please be upfront about it. As has been brought up, licenses like Creative Commons (http://creativecommons.org) may be useful as they've done most of the work. We can provide advice but we'd rather not be judge, jury and executioner. Don't assume saying nothing means free-for-all, this isn't Google Images. These arguments come up all the time in modding communities, so none of this is new ground. Research and cover your ass if you must.

Personal opinions from SupSuper that may not represent the views of any other OpenXcom contributor follow

From my perspective, Hobbes had an issue with how other modders were using his content, brought it up with them, and eventually settled on a resolution. A bit drastic, but a lot was discussed in private so we're not seeing the whole picture. Nonetheless the issue was resolved, each side's wishes were followed. There was no big public outcry, no schism, no end of modding. And yet, everyone else decided to start sniping from the sidelines, worried about imaginary repercussions and coming to defend their side. "Slippery slope", "Think of the children", etc.

This is not a legal matter. Mods are a grey area. OpenXcom is a grey area. Attribution is not absolution, it's admission. Fair use is a defence for the courts, not a "get out of jail free" card. As it stands, we have mods using everything from copyrighted content, IPs, trademarks, etc. Trying to define what is and isn't "original content" will not go well for you. Any army of lawyers could wipe you off the map. The law is not on your side. Don't bother arguing this.

This is a moral matter. Just because the law is not on your side doesn't mean nobody has any say. In the end we're all operating entirely on "good faith", that's basically how modding works. It doesn't mean we all have the same opinions: "money poisons all", "everything should be shared", "my time is valuable", "for the greater good", etc. I get it, they're controversial topics. But I think the involved parties have already made up their minds, so arguing further is just adding fuel to the fire. Respect everyone's opinions, agree to disagree.

Personally, I do not fear the army of lawyers, or the slippery slope of jerks that are just waiting for the chance to tear modding apart with their stashes of exclusive closed content. That's counterproductive. I don't think there's any inherent benefit in enforcing everything to be under one rule. Content creators can create amazing things whether for free or for a price. Different people have different priorities and produce content differently. Let authors have their say. I don't care for getting credit or a cut of everyone's work. I'd rather OpenXcom be a launching point for every kind of crazy cool idea people have, than just another source of the "license boogeyman". But this is all personal, so I may be proven wrong. Hope not.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Mathel on November 28, 2019, 09:15:27 am
This is the same as saying that the authors of OXC are claiming authorship over the original game, because they call themselves authors of OXC.

Who's the author of OXC then? The players? The modders? No one?
What does it matter? OXC is open-source.
The point I am trying to make is, that you want people not use your stuff, but you have used other people's stuff to create it.
"No. If the modification/improvement outweights original work to the point it is no longer the same thing, I won't remove them. I will honor your request only to the reasonable extent."
This is what you were angry about. But aren't you also guilty of it?
There were tiles old and new, rearranged to make new things. Like a painter takes colors and makes a new painting out of them. I agree that you may be author of the Terrain Pack. And that the Terrain Pack as a whole was original content. But you are not the author of every asset contained within.

Your pack ended up being used as a box of crayons, to create bigger mods. These modders did not create the terrains. But they gave them new use. It is similar to what you did, just on bigger scale. Where you took tiles to create terrains, they took terrains to create missions.

You are the author of the Terrain Pack. You have the right to prevent it's use, though using it retroactively is poor form.
But the result of exercising this right could have been disasterous. Luckily it seems it won't be.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 28, 2019, 03:24:14 pm
You are the author of the Terrain Pack. You have the right to prevent it's use, though using it retroactively is poor form. But the result of exercising this right could have been disasterous. Luckily it seems it won't be.

And why exactly did I had to exercise that right?

Because it was being used for unauthorized proposes, namely for the propose of donations. 

And I asked to the person responsible for it to stop or I'd remove my permission for the assets to be used, the person responsible chose to keep donations.

I wasn't the one who choose to start asking for donations without considering all the authors, and I wasn't the one who chose with donations when I asked to stop.

So if you want to assign bad judgment on the parties, you can start right there.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 28, 2019, 04:10:51 pm
I think they keypoint here is, that you retroactively decided what unauthorized purpose is.
If that was clear from the start ("By including this in your mod you agree not to take any donations"), that´d have been different.
And not a single soul would argue about any of that.

Retroactively deciding what is allowed and what not, after no clear terms were given (again, excluding giving credits) and usage was tolerated over a long time,
is considered poor form.
Whether it is taking donations, or wearing green socks (how could you?! I never wore green socks or would condone it!), how could anyone have known.
Doing this retroactively, after your content was included in other mods and requires major work to replace, would put you into position to demand anything, just because you feel like it now. Thats why its often considered bad manners.
(As would be including other mods without asking, but if anyone asked "can i use your stuff in my mod" and you agreed without stating any terms, well no terms apply...)
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 28, 2019, 05:06:03 pm
I think they keypoint here is, that you retroactively decided what unauthorized purpose is.
If that was clear from the start ("By including this in your mod you agree not to take any donations"), that´d have been different.
And not a single soul would argue about any of that.

Are you saying that I don't have the right to revoke permissions whenever I want, and for whatever reasons I chose to?

Are you saying that anyone has the right to do whatever they want with my work because I haven't specified its uses?

What's your keypoint? That I have no right to change my mind when I find unauthorized uses of my work?

Quote
Retroactively deciding what is allowed and what not, after no clear terms were given (again, excluding giving credits) and usage was tolerated over a long time,
is considered poor form.

Poor form is deciding to add donations on the middle of your project, without fully considering all of its effects and the need to renew authorizations, because of the issues regarding donations.

So, who started it? And for what reason?

Quote
Whether it is taking donations, or wearing green socks (how could you?! I never wore green socks or would condone it!), how could anyone have known.
Doing this retroactively, after your content was included in other mods and requires major work to replace, would put you into position to demand anything, just because you feel like it now. Thats why its often considered bad manners.

If my work is so important:
a) Why didn't the person who adapted it took every precaution to prevent this sort of issue from happening?

b) Why did he chose instead to keep donations ('I receive less than zero from this') instead of keeping my work?

I asked that my wishes to the respected, and it was refused in a very impolite way. That's bad manners toward me.

He chose to keep donations, knowing how it would affect everyone. He could have suspended them, removed my content, and then asked for donations without needing my permission. He chose instead to follow the current route, without considering the effect it would have on his mod's community, because he chose donations.

Because he wants to keeping ask for money, the mod can't function properly anymore. That's bad manners towards everyone involved in his mod.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the whole key point of this.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 28, 2019, 05:36:31 pm
Are you saying that I don't have the right to revoke permissions whenever I want, and for whatever reasons I chose to?
Nope, you can. Doing it for whatever reason you choose... well, green socks.
Are you saying that anyone has the right to do whatever they want with my work because I haven't specified its uses?
If you let them use it without clarifying on what terms, yes.
Poor form is deciding to add donations on the middle of your project
Why? Its quite common...
and the need to renew authorizations, because of the issues regarding donations.
If no restrictions in that direction are known (or stated by you in that case), why would anyone consider it?
Or are you demanding if someone includes your stuff in their mod they need to inform you whenever they put on socks or eat lunch, because it might happen in the future you decide you´re vegegarian and don't approve of green socks. Or marry someone. Turns out you could decide thats outrageous and they would have needed to rearrange their asset usage with you again.
Unless you state that you care about that, why would anyone consider it might piss you off or they need to renew their authorization regarding using your stuff?

Why didn't the person who adapted it took every precaution to prevent this sort of issue from happening?
There seems to be no precedence case here, so probably didn't regard it as needed. Pretty sure that will change.

b) Why did he chose instead to keep donations ('I receive less than zero from this') instead of keeping my work?
I have no information about this. But I´d have decided the same. You retroactively coming up with demands after usage was granted is akin to blackmail.
"You do as I say now, or else", on a matter that is no concern to you, because you suddenly declare it your concern.
Why would anyone give in to that. Matter of principle.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 28, 2019, 06:16:59 pm
If you let them use it without clarifying on what terms, yes.

It's called trust and common sense. I thought 20 years ago that the modders would respect one and use the other when using my work. Since things have changed, I discovered I needed to change as well.

Quote
Why? Its quite common...If no restrictions in that direction are known (or stated by you in that case), why would anyone consider it?

Please read the full sentence I wrote:

"Poor form is deciding to add donations on the middle of your project, without fully considering all of its effects and the need to renew authorizations, because of the issues regarding donations. "

This is a basic principle behind all contracts: if you change the terms of an agreement, the other party has the right not to continue with the agreement.

Quote
Unless you state that you care about that, why would anyone consider it might piss you off or they need to renew their authorization regarding using your stuff?

If you want to keep using my stuff, you do, if you start using it for something else than initially agreed on. If he decided to turn the mod into an 'adult only content' or using it to recruit members for a religious sect, I'd be in every right to demand my work stopped being used on it.

I don't work for you or that mod or anyone involved on it. I was never a part of that team. I didn't made those assets specifically for that mod as well. I don't owe anything to you, them, or anyone else involved with that mod. But they own me, if they wanted to keep using my work.

And I didn't give authorization to last until eternity or do whatever you want with it. And just because I didn't specifically state my rights or preferences, that doesn't mean that they can be ignored by the other party.

Quote
There seems to be no precedence case here, so probably didn't regard it as needed. Pretty sure that will change.

Agreed. That's the one positive outcome of this affair, that this whole issue will make modders more considerate of other modder's rights.

Quote
I have no information about this. But I´d have decided the same.

So you've made your decision about the situation after only asking explanations and clarification to one of the parties involved? That's cool though, we'd probably still disagree regardless of the answer from other side.

Quote
You retroactively coming up with demands after usage was granted is akin to blackmail.

If you consider that 'blackmail' is when modders realize their rights and also start demanding that they are respected, then I can assure you, from the private messages I've been receiving through this whole affair from other modders, that you're going to see a lot more 'Cease and desist' notices happening.

If you want to avoid this completely - go and pay for a game and play. Or create your own content.

Because using 'free stuff' doesn't give you automatically the right to do whatever you want with it, without caring for the possible consequences. And if you believed it otherwise, welcome to the real world.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Helmet_Hair on November 28, 2019, 06:51:57 pm
Yikes, what a move! Modding community be damned I guess.

Also taking donations is not selling.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 28, 2019, 07:01:28 pm
Also taking donations is not selling.

Your opinion. My opinion about donations is different. I am the author. When I decide upon usage of my work, my opinion is more important than yours.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: TheCurse on November 28, 2019, 07:23:10 pm
"Poor form is deciding to add donations on the middle of your project, without fully considering all of its effects and the need to renew authorizations, because of the issues regarding donations. "
Again, why would anyone know that donations are an issue for you, if you never mentioned it before?
This is a basic principle behind all contracts: if you change the terms of an agreement, the other party has the right not to continue with the agreement.
Were were the terms stated? There was no mention of any of those issues in any states terms. (Stated terms were giving credit and possibly submit assets)
I´d say it was a mutual agreement, not a contract. Which you changed one sided. If that was a contract, usually there´d be a temporal component (til next year, til eternity) both sides have to keep to the accepted terms, for exactly the reason of one party not just changing them at will, forcing term change or end of contract.
Your landlord kicks you out because you wear green socks. Turns out it was a huge issue for him and you should have known you need to re-clarify your terms with him before doing it. He forbids you to wear green socks or your contract won't continue.
Luckily you won't have an agreement, but a contract (and pretty sure sock color is not mentioned there), and he can't just change a contract one sided.
Contract says "if its not in here (and not illegal), it does not matter".
If I´d be entering a mutual agreement with you, I´d trust you to not suddenly change your mind on the terms of the agreement. Well, you did.

if you start using it for something else than initially agreed on
What was agreed on initially?
If he decided to turn the mod into an 'adult only content' or using it to recruit members for a religious sect, I'd be in every right to demand my work stopped being used on it.
Where do you make that distinction of what he can do and what not without rearrangement with you? Or do you interpret that agreement as blank cheque for anything that theoretically would come to mind? Wearing green socks? (This time not as abstract example, but literally)
I don't work for you or that mod or anyone involved on it. I was never a part of that team. I didn't made those assets specifically for that mod as well. I don't owe anything to you, them, or anyone else involved with that mod.
Agreed.
But they own me, if they wanted to keep using my work.
Yes, but only to a certain extent. "Wanna keep using my mod? Do not use any green tiles in your mod. And all letters only caps. Or stop using it." (might come the next day again and demand no caps letters at all now)
While you can state that, is it reasonable? No. A basis for bilateral trust? Not the slightest. So regardless the actual demands, accepting them is unreasonable, unless they are trivial.

And just because I didn't specifically state my rights or preferences, that doesn't mean that they can be ignored by the other party.
That is my key point. "I did not state any preferences, but I want you to keep to them". Well most people can't read minds, and thoughts are volatile anyway... But the stance "You ignored things I didn't tell you" is anthing but fair. Or reasonable. Or common sense.

Your opinion. My opinion about donations is different. I am the author. When I decide upon usage of my work, my opinion is more important than yours.
Usually facts beat opinions. Are there some about that...?
(there are)
Unless opinions are rated more important than facts... But well, who´d do such a thing.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Juku121 on November 28, 2019, 07:34:05 pm
*De-lurks*

I'm not going to try arguing, since everyone's entrenched by now. I will just point out four things:


Are you saying that anyone has the right to do whatever they want with my work because I haven't specified its uses?

This is a basic principle behind all contracts:

Yes. We are not mind readers. This is precisely why licencing and revoking licences was invented. There is no contract until you specify one. Going back and saying 'but there was a contract, everyone knows you can't wear green socks' is very poor form at the very least. I just looked, and neither TP's readme nor the first post in its thread says anything about even 'non-commercial use', nevermind donations. There seem to have been no general restrictions at all, unless you negotiated those with every user of TP you became aware of on a case-by-case basis.

...modders realize their rights and also start demanding that they are respected, then I can assure you, from the private messages I've been receiving through this whole affair from other modders, that you're going to see a lot more 'Cease and desist' notices happening.

This is precisely what most of those who've argued against this feared, Yankes being the first to fully articulate it. Modding is inherently an activity that consists of taking someone else's work and building on it. Sharing yours and then going 'no, but you can't use it unless you jump through these hoops' basically amounts to violating what little there is that passes for modder ethos. The only truly positive effect of such 'enforcement' is preventing people from claiming someone else's work as their own. That was never the issue here.

TLDR: This is someone I used to respect going for a 'Paid Creations' environment with none of the upsides of actually getting paid. I'm saddened, puzzled and clinging to a small bit of hope it won't transform a significant chunk of the community into a series of walled-off gardens.

*Re-lurks*
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Wasara on November 28, 2019, 09:16:30 pm
Man this is kinda rough to see coming out of here.
I sympathize with you Hobbes and how it feels to have an opinion that conflicts with others and get ganged up on because of it.
When I comes to the modder having all the rights over their content, you're 100% right and everyone agrees with you there.
Keep in mind that there is almost no method of forced compliance here. The modders made the choice to respect your rights despite disagreeing with how you wanted to use them.
I may be wrong, but I think that there's nothing stopping them from ignoring you and resuming their work on their mods other than their respect for your rights.
Id bet no lawyer is going into this mess since there's basically no signifigent money in it.

At this point, I'd urge everyone to step back from the issue and take some time to think about what happened here. What's done is done. There's been a lot of time and energy put into this and I think y'all deserve a break.

I hope people here keep pumping out good times.
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Hobbes on November 28, 2019, 09:36:56 pm
  • A primary the source of this problem is a combination of poor communication and rudeness, most of which can be safely blamed on one specific user of Hobbes's work. But not all of it, unfortunately. Hobbes's reaction was and continues to be over the top and in poor form. And I don't really see anything changing if, hypothetically, the modder was polite, argued for donations being harmless or perhaps proposing to share them, etc.
If the donations are so harmless, why they didn't remove them instead? I gave the option and he refused.

Why doesn't he remove them now? The whole issue could be solved quickly. Instead, they choose continuing with donations.

Who's being exactly over the top and in poor form?

Quote
AFAICT Hobbes would still have gone into 'I'll take my toys and go home' mode.


Did I leave the site and delete everything and said f*** u* to everyone?

Quote
Given that he's a long-standing member of the community, a moderator and someone who occasionally tries to set standards, that's not a good precedent. SupSuper recently threatened to ban some users for relatively minor squabbling (aka the 'don't be a jerk' rule). What's going on here is full-blown drama initiated by a moderator.

Except for moderating the section of the site dealing with Area 51, I'm not a moderator anywhere else. So complaints about moderation should be taken elsewhere, because they don't belong here.

Quote
  • to change the behaviour of others (this has, obviously, failed or at least backfired to a significant degree),
  • to influence others' opinion of oneself (that's a net loss, if this thread is any indication),
  • to make yourself feel good about your work and its usage (TP is being stripped down and getting less used in the future, so ...).

Your opinion, and I disagree in all points. For all I know, you know zip about me, except for what's been happening lately. So consider that before you even try to analyze me.

Quote
What is the problem with donations, exactly? I'm also generally ill-disposed towards modders making money from their work, but for a completely practical reason: it encourages 'copyrighting' mods, hoarding and not sharing your work, cliques, drama and squabbling, all of which significantly damage any modding scene. Witness e.g. Bethesda's 'paid Skyrim mods' debacle. What was Hobbes's solution to donations? Diving head-first into the same kind of behaviour.

I have no knowledge of this situation and I don't need to.

Someone had behavior towards me that my personal values say it's abusive, by deciding to ask for donations after they've used my work and never asking permission for it. I told them to stop. They refused. Consequences followed immediately on my part until the abusive behavior stops.

That's how I am in real life towards any kind of abusive behavior, towards me or others. I agree with you that I can be direct and harsh, but I also can be very diplomatic. I tried diplomacy first. It failed.

Quote
The only truly positive effect of such 'enforcement' is preventing people from claiming someone else's work as their own. That was never the issue here.

And what exactly do you think it means when someone decides to take your work and use it for commercial proposes?

That person is claiming it as its own to make money![/list][/list]
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Mathel on November 28, 2019, 10:11:07 pm
OK, I am tired of this argument repetition.
I will sum up what I learned from this thread.

Hobbes created the Terrain Pack (and Area51).
Many modders used the TP for assets.
Some of them asked for donations.
Hobbes disliked this and, after an argument, decided to give an ultimatum to one of them.
"Either you will stop asking for donations, or I will disallow you from using TP!"
This person decided to keep asking for donations.
Hobbes decreed that nobody is allowed to use have used TP.
Very few people liked this.

My reasons for not liking it: It punishes not just the offenders, but all who would play or make mods using the TP, whether there are donations involved or not.
                                            It sets a bad precedence for problem solutions, one that could cause collapse of megamods.

We argued, and could not come to an agreement on the following questions:
1)"Is asking for donations commercial use?"
2)"How large percentage has to be original for the whole work to be considered original?"
3)"Whose fault the whole thing was?"
4)"Does the modder on this platform (OXC(E)) have the right to revoke usage?"

I will now state my opinions on said questions, and that will be it.
1)"Not really. It is close, but not quite."
2)"50% of work, or an original idea."
3)"Hobbes. Holding hostages, even if they are your children is never a good idea."
4)"As there is no specific licence, yes. But doing so should be done carefully."
Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: Kjotleik on November 28, 2019, 10:57:22 pm
I seem to have missed all the drama here.

But, there is one thing that seems to have been overlooked in the discussion.

It can be argued that if an original work has been released to the public, and the author has given permission for it to be used in other mods, it should be considered as a work under Public Domain.

I don't know the exact details regarding the release/publishing of the Terrain Pack, but if no other license was mentioned - and it was given the impression that it was free to use - then it is more likely than not that it would fall under Public Domain. I believe a court would take into account the INTENTION on the day of release when deciding if it can come under PD or not, if it ever went to court. But I don't really know. If any of you have a case to show, I'd be interested in reading about it.

And, as a matter of law (this is not an opinion, but a fact) once released under Public Domain, it cannot be removed from Public Domain.

In that light - IF the Terrain Pack can be considered PD -  Hobbes doesn't have the right to deny/restrict its use in other mods. He can ask for it not to be used. But nobody is required to follow that wish.

Of course, as polite members of the modding community, we all credit each other for things we take. But the fact is; that is probably not required by law.

Title: Re: Terrain Pack considerations
Post by: SupSuper on November 29, 2019, 08:48:33 am
I'm closing this thread since everyone has made up their minds and this arguing is going nowhere. Diplomacy is more likely once everyone's cooled down. Here's my last post (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,7614.msg119992.html#msg119992) on this topic if you missed it.

TL;DR: Hobbes was unsatisfied with how some modders were reusing his work and decided to disallow it until further notice. If you've got any further questions or issues with this, take them with him. I'm sure he's not beyond being amicable if you come peacefully.

I wanna address this though:

  • A primary the source of this problem is a combination of poor communication and rudeness, most of which can be safely blamed on one specific user of Hobbes's work. But not all of it, unfortunately. Hobbes's reaction was and continues to be over the top and in poor form. And I don't really see anything changing if, hypothetically, the modder was polite, argued for donations being harmless or perhaps proposing to share them, etc. AFAICT Hobbes would still have gone into 'I'll take my toys and go home' mode. Given that he's a long-standing member of the community, a moderator and someone who occasionally tries to set standards, that's not a good precedent. SupSuper recently threatened to ban some users for relatively minor squabbling (aka the 'don't be a jerk' rule). What's going on here is full-blown drama initiated by a moderator. This is not good for the community as a whole.