As for my save file, I did play it until I lost the game, is it still useful to post?
But at some point only kitsune can fight. In my game for a very long time only kitsune could oppose enemy ships because I couldn't get into mig31 for a long time.
@Solarius
Is this intended? The whole concept sounds kind of unbalanced tbh. How and why do cults even have access to fighter jets and airbases without the council/UN/whatever carpet bombing the crap out of them? The whole point of the early cults is to avoid too much scrutiny and stay undetected, isn't it? Why does X-Com even need to investigate them if their is straightup evidence that they are essentially engaging in unsanctioned military action on a sovereign nations territory?
(...)
What they're doing is generally not approved by the government, but they have enough influence to get away with such actions under the cover of military exercises or such. It's not like X-Com can go complain to the police, and if they go to the Council, the Council will point out that this is exactly why they pay you.Sorry, but that doesn't really make much sense unless the military of every country the cultists are active in is also infiltrated at the highest level, not even considering what the general public would think about "military excercises" (utilizing foreign aircraft no less) regularely shooting down other (civilian? How are X-Coms craft identified to the public?) aircraft in their own country. MIB at least have some outlandish designs that can be "explained away" as UFOs. Do you know how much of a fuss a MIG-31 shooting down a helicopter near a major US (or European) population center would cause? This is something you'd expect to see during an actual (civil) war.
Thanks for the tips. I was playing on Ironman so I don't have any other saves.
I had three bases and only one of the bases had a cult manor next to it, although I could not see it. My main issue was the 13 other cult manors on the map preventing me from getting to missions. Once one of my vehicles had been spotted, it was done for. No way to run away, and a single cannon on a humvee could not take them down.
I was also broke. I must have spent 2 mill to replace destroyed vehicles, but the main monetary issue was that I made the mistake of hiring 45 scientists after I had built two labs. This brought my maintenance to about 1 mill above my funding of 2.8 mil. But I could have survived that if not for the cult manors shooting down my craft.
@Solarius
This needs to be adressed. You have direct evidence that the mechanic as is is badly designed and implemented. No matter how badly a players messes up, your mechanic should not prevent players from going to missions. I haven't even had this happen with alien bases.
I believe you are mostly correct Solarius. But I my main issue was not a base next to my own. I still had two other bases to launch missions from.
What I would like to know is if it is normal to have 14 cult manors at one time on beginner difficulty in 1998? Most of my months had been a positive score.
And why could my humvee with a cannon not shoot them down?
The game being difficult is not an issue, but I did adapt my play style to the issues. I gave my humvees weapons and bought more Dragonflies (which I thought would be fast enough to outrun the enemy craft). But nothing I could do was enough.
Perhaps there is a way to feed a bit more info to the player. Then again, most games I played back in the 90's didn't tell you shit and you were supposed to just work it out...No offense, but that is a pretty sh**** argument. I started out on an Amiga 1000 playing Mind Walker (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_Walker) at an age where I barely understood english and had no manual. Let me tell you that I didn't have a great time to say the least.
...
3) You have a very firm opinion about how these things work in real life. I am not saying that you're wrong, but I do not share this certainty; even without delving into conspiracy theories (which this mod is all about), things like this can and do happen. Yes, it requires some involvement of high echelons in government and military circles, which is kind of the point. And it is definitely within the logic of this genre.
...
I don't have a problem with these features Solarius. They sound fun how you describe them.
In my game, and it was my first time playing Xcom Files, I could have easily destroyed these cult bases if I could have found them. Maybe I didn't have the required research, I don't know.
I had gotten to a decent level of research in my opinion, maybe not for the time I was at, but I was playing at beginner level. I was taken out by something I could not fight against. I had no way of finding these bases and no way of completing any more missions. Now I have to start again. It does feel a little disheartening. If I knew where the bases were but didn't have the skill or men to beat them at least it would have felt like I deserved to lose.
How do I prevent this in the future? Up until this point I had successfully completed most missions that had shown up. I had tried to take leaders alive and research them, but maybe I could have done a better job with this.
At what point do I need to be at to stop this from happening in the future?
Perhaps I did not have the right language set, but these craft only looked like UFO's to me. If they are only cars and helicopters could they move slower and be weaker on beginner difficulty? I had humvees with cannons on them and I could not take down a single craft. One time they ran away but the other two craft that were chasing me destroyed my humvee. My dragonflies could not even outrun them. I would assume a plane is faster than a helicopter or car.
I had an enemy base right next to mine, I know this because whenever a craft would launch it would get chased straight away. It is kind of funny to think about. I must have been doing terribly in the game.
But I do really appreciate your work Solarius, great mod and great work. My inability to beat it should not take away from that.
Anyway, I have attached my save file.
Edit: Keep in mind that I could not do any missions for the last two months of the game. So that may be the reason for any low ratings with countries.
Edit 2: Just found out by looking at my own save file that I had 14 cult manors on my map.
Few things are as satisfying as hearing a dozen cultists scream in agony because you landed a mortar shell just outside the front door.
I ended up with like 15 manors spawning including some very close to my bases, but honestly I loved the experience because it genuinely made the existence of the cults a threat to XCOM. Annoying? Yes. Which I think is EXACTLY what should happen if you ignore them for too long. When I was finally able to launch a counter-attack with interceptors I was thrilled, as it was such a clutch situation fighting my way out of a -700 point deficit for two months in a row. It was exciting and frustrating in the same way that chyssalids and the like are.
So I think the data supports you in that the manors spawn too fast and too tough. Despite the manors supposedly only being punishment towards the end of 1998, if you haven't killed off the cults by August 1998, you're in for some hurt.
The teleporting reinforcements are a pain. If they got delayed to severals turns in like the farmer MiBs, maybe. I could go with that speed of reinforcement for the HQs, but since you have to play ball with manors a lot, that's a bit over the top, too.
All in all, manors are kinda like the Ninjas of cult mission progression.
...these manors are currently killing me, I have around 20 according to my save game and 6 of them just in europe...:o ...you're fucked.
...including one next to my main base and one manor and embassy in the same spot.I just had the same situation and I think it's probably Solarius ignoring the warning and 'weird shit (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,6430.msg104530.html#msg104530)' happening as a result.
Cult manors spawn in three 'waves': Oct 1997 - Feb 1998, Mar '98 - Jul '98, Aug '98 - whenever you destroy them. Each 'wave' only spawns the corresponding tier of manors. It takes a manor quite long to actually upgrade: 30% chance per month starting from the fifth month of being active, 100% chance on the 10th month. And that then repeats if the manor was originally low-tier. So the spawns usually outnumber upgrades for new tiers.So I think the data supports you in that the manors spawn too fast and too tough. Despite the manors supposedly only being punishment towards the end of 1998, if you haven't killed off the cults by August 1998, you're in for some hurt.
Once they hit 6 months on the highest tier, there's a small chance of progressing beyond manors: Hybrids, Golden Academy, Dagon High Temple (apparently you can have several of those at the same time?).
The teleporting reinforcements are a pain. If they got delayed to severals turns in like the farmer MiBs, maybe. I could go with that speed of reinforcement for the HQs, but since you have to play ball with manors a lot, that's a bit over the top, too.
All in all, manors are kinda like the Ninjas of cult mission progression.
Yeah, I agree that this stealth moving of goalposts is a bit underhanded. On the other hand, do you really want the invasion and the cultist ramp-up to coincide? I don't know, the cults don't really seem to get their marching orders from the aliens. Well, not the regular aliens, anyway.
Reinforcements hitting you hard from the word go I actually even like. But not if there are 20 mansions already swarming with regular cultists where it happens. And if you don't play ball, good-bye non-chartered transports. At least the MiB are avoidable.
Solarius wants the cultists to stick around and I like the idea in general. It's sort of interesting that you still have to wipe out the remnants and can't just do a decapitation blow. I imagine the reasoning goes that they more or less retired from Red Dawn or whatever and became local warlords or something. This is actually kinda believable for Russia (and especially 90s Russia), possibly also China, definitely Africa, large chunks of Asia and South America. It's the US EXALT, Japanese BL and European RD/Dagonites where this line of reasoning fails.
Interesting. But I'm not sure whether several of these suggestions really work out:
- Using the Mudcrawler on random mansions in the ass end of nowhere means you must build a temporary base with hangars, living quarters and perhaps stores. That's about 1.15-1.75 million dollars, more than you'd usually gain from a single assault on even the highest-tier mansion.
- Smoke means your troops are firing at a penalty. So are theirs, but theirs can outnumber you by quite a margin (Red Dawn, EXALT and BL depending on their team composition and where they actually move during the mission). And smoke tends to work against you more than against the enemy due to the "You hit me, I spot you, anywhere!" mechanic.
Sniper rifles in the hands of high-accuracy troops mitigate the penalty quite a bit, but sniper rifles used that way are good for one shot per turn, at best.- Smoke also sucks against aliens since they mostly have heatvision and you usually don't. So they tend to spot you first. Kinda mirrors their night vision advantage. And aliens are almost uniformly all snipers.
- In brief, hoping that smoke will hide you from the enemy is folly, unless you never attack anyone (and in that case, you're not a 'sniper'). Hoping it'll provide cover is a gamble. Only against non-sniper enemies or combined with actual hard cover does it of work. Mostly.
- I am extremely doubtful of the general early applicability of mortars and rocket launchers against terror ships. The map is usually crawling with baddies, there are alien laser turrets that can take a rocket round or three and stay in the game. I can see it happening with a favourable starting position, map layout and/or a weaker enemy race (floaters&reapers :) ). But in general, the margin of error is just too damn small without strong armour and armor-piercing weapons.
- I do agree that mansion maps are uniquely suited to mortars due to the open-air nature of your starting position, and the general openness of the map.
- As mentioned before, grenades with their ridiculous range and accuracy make the game so much easier it's almost cheating.
- The 'occasionally rolling back into auto-saved positions' bit is probably the biggest contributor towards no casualties at all.
The use of crawler was important for delivering enough troops to the mansion.So apparently you did find some use for them. Or changed your mind since. :)
- Smoke also sucks against aliens since they mostly have heatvision and you usually don't. So they tend to spot you first. Kinda mirrors their night vision advantage. And aliens are almost uniformly all snipers.
The mansion comment was in response to So apparently you did find some use for them. Or changed your mind since. :)
I don't find many opportunities to actually snipe around mansions, the map is kinda cramped for that. Indirect-fire explosive ordnance is much better. And if the opposition includes lots of snipers, your smoke is quite a bit less useful than it used to be. Although 16 troops help mitigate all of this a lot. Still, Sorcerers or Enforcers blindly shooting/throwing grenades at your position is a lot of pain.
My opinion of vanilla-style grenades and explosives is that they are cheat mode. Try throwing a pack of C4 the same distance you're usually able to hit with a rifle (a few hundred meters, at least). :P
Without serious armour, the tactics against aliens is generally as follows. (A) Against surface aliens outside the vessel, use explosives extensively.AKA grenades are OP, as usual. :)
Against aliens inside the vessel, setup ambushes at doors with hand-to-hand weapons (prods and blades).I haven't found this to be all that good since you're hitting the alien from the front and thus getting hit with all or most of the dodge penalty. Melee hit chances are already a roulette a lot of the time.
Now, a question to an experienced player: what if you got a lobstermen assault mission, while only having heavy tritanium suits and kinetic weapons (even with Tt, for the sake of an argument) available.Choke damage. Stuff like nooses and Knockout grenades. Maybe try drowning them in smoke, too. Not good, but at least gives you a fighting chance.
The explosive packs are much more difficult to handle, but in-game, they're severely range limited as well.Nobody really throws HE packs in real life. It's needlessly dangerous and we have weapons to do that for us.
Grenades could be thrown 30 meters easily.A lot of tactical combat occurs in the sub-300 meter range. 100 meters is MOUT territory, or terrain so claustrophobic you really need to do something about it. Neither's where you want to fight if you have a choice. Russians learned that the hard way recently.
A lot of tactical combat occurs below 100 meter range. Hence, the development of subsonic munitions around caliber of 0.5 inches with heavy bullets and high stopping power on both sides of the Atlantic.
It usually takes about 8 smoke grenades to create a good smoke cover. Also, on mansion missions, the initial barrage with HE / mortars is essential to clean out any close enemy spotters.Killing spotters makes them spot the killer. :(
The enemy grenades are usually not very accurate and effective, and in the worst case the turn should really be replayed with a slightly different final disposition.Sure, but if you're save-scumming (and I have nothing against that, I'm a pathological save-scummer myself), then it's the power of reloading that's mitigating the grenades, not any tactics on your part. I tend to get at least one 'bad' grenade per mission when there's more than one dude around chucking them.
AKA grenades are OP, as usual. :)
I haven't found this to be all that good since you're hitting the alien from the front and thus getting hit with all or most of the dodge penalty. Melee hit chances are already a roulette a lot of the time.
I play with CQB using TU, so that might colour my perception somewhat.
Choke damage. Stuff like nooses and Knockout grenades. Maybe try drowning them in smoke, too. Not good, but at least gives you a fighting chance.
Nobody really throws HE packs in real life. It's needlessly dangerous and we have weapons to do that for us.
In-game, enemies used to throw dynamite at me from off-screen all the time. I put a stop to this, of course, but we're discussing the mod as it is, not as I'd make it.
A lot of tactical combat occurs in the sub-300 meter range. 100 meters is MOUT territory, or terrain so claustrophobic you really need to do something about it. Neither's where you want to fight if you have a choice. Russians learned that the hard way recently.
Even then, 30 meters is nothing on even 100-meter rifle ranges (which is not a general rule of combat, even urban combat).
The Whisper/Blackout/9x39 etc family are niche cartridges for niche weapons. Nobody issues these on a general basis. And even the one organisation that does/did (Russian special forces) had a lot of bad things to say about the AS VAL/Vintorez when they actually needed to do battle with it. It had more to do with the shoddy construction and sights, though.
In any case, individual firearms are really not particularly important in modern heavy-duty combat. They're essentially military pacifiers, issued so that troops won't feel bad about being 'unarmed'. ;D Well, that and to bully civilians/irregulars.
Killing spotters makes them spot the killer. :(
I find that there's not enough room to place a smoke cloud between myself and the enemy on mansion maps. Being in the smoke is a lot less effective than having smoke farther out.
I'm not saying smoke is entirely useless, it still reduces vision and imposes aim penalties. But IMO the heavy lifting is done by mortars actually killing enemies. And panicking others in the process.
Sure, but if you're save-scumming (and I have nothing against that, I'm a pathological save-scummer myself), then it's the power of reloading that's mitigating the grenades, not any tactics on your part. I tend to get at least one 'bad' grenade per mission when there's more than one dude around chucking them.
The rest is true and spot-on.
What is the setting value you're using for "CQB using TU"?
closeQuartersTuCostGlobal: 10 # up from 0
closeQuartersEnergyCostGlobal: 10 # up from 5
I assumed, the reaction is always TU based.Reactions and CQB are different things. Documentation says CQB is (by default) [100 - ((melee+reactions)/2 - enemy dodge)] chance to misfire, with some weapons multiplying (melee+reactions)/2 by some percentage to account for them being very easy or very hard to misdirect. There's also a 50% chance of bypassing the CQC check if you sneak up on an enemy (the entire opposing team has not seen or doesn't remember the sneaking unit).
What you need to do is to have 4 soldiers guarding the door, since an alien could usually make a step out the door.Four guys exposes at least two of them to much more alien fire if the little grey dude decides to shoot instead of stepping forward, or has friends behind him. And makes the entire team a grenade magnet.
What weapons are you using against the alien? I usually use either psi blades (acquired from the White Tower as trophies) or stun gear. Those work pretty well.Fists and stun weapons, mostly. My operatives aren't big on the 'bring a sword to a gunfight' school of thought. 8)
In general, the alien trapped in a corridor, is unable to shoot accurately, and has a decent chance of missing on any of your troops, provided he even manages to fire a shot. The suicidal grenades from aliens are a much greater danger.True. But my point was that melee is unreliable. You miss, and miss, and miss, and then suddenly kill any non-uber enemy even with a piece of pipe. Or just waste your turn. And if they're dodgy, like a Reptoid, Tasoth, Waspite or even a mech-Floater, your chance to hit goes way down.
Never thought about using a noose on that creature; if you could play test, could you please post a result.Well, the result is that if you manage to sneak up on a Lobsterman, he goes to sleep in one hit. And the chance to hit is pretty good. Getting into melee range is the hard part.
In general, the use of gas grenades allows to down them en-masse.Sure, these are the WMD against Lobstermen. But gas grenades are moderately rare loot and Promo III manufacturing. Which is before full alloy suits, but (mostly feral) Lobstermen can come up way before that.
Of course, with laser miniguns and heavy sonic cannons they're as good as dead always.I have my Lobstermen a bit more armoured than vanilla XCF, ~1.5 times overall but with more uniform values. So scatter lasers are pretty much useless, and non-focused sonic cannons aren't too hot, either. Lobstermen are supposed to be scary, dammit! :P
However, such solution is a response to external limitations on the available ordnance.The tactic is only possible because of X-Coms wildly unrealistic handling of grenades and other throwables. Which most mods tend to copy, for reasons that are very murky to me. :-\
I think, something in that ballpark is a part of a military physical training standard. The grenades are deemed effective at such ranges, and such ranges are deemed relevant in actual combat.20-30 meters seem to be the usual standards. 50 is possible with hardcore soldiers and/or lighter, non-frag grenades. But this is seldom how far people throw these in actual combat because they're usually loaded down with a shitton of other gear, adrenaline is high and accuracy absolutely matters.
I think, 300 meters range has been a justification for the reduction of calibers in main rifles. The 100 meter range has been a justification for the 12.7 mm munitions.Where are you getting this 100 meters from? Do you have a link or other reference?
Both SOCOM in US and various Russian SF had come up with their own 12.7 mm / 0.5 in cartridges in the last years.They have? Which ones?
Being in the smoke on mansion missions protects the sodiers from the spotters from the upper floors.Not sure that's 100% true, since smoke tends to thin when you go up some elevation levels, and LoS changes to more vertical.
The smoke cloud in general should be pretty large to be efficient, maybe the full diameter of a single smoke grenade.In my experience, you need a full diameter between you and the enemy for smoke grenades to be fully effective. If you're camping in a smoke cloud, that's at least 50% more than just a full diameter.
The miniguns operating from a smoke cloud are remarkably effective. The ones operating on the edge of a smoke cloud (with walking in-and-out tactics) are fantastically effective.Miniguns OP, nerf please. :D