It could be argued, that the presence of cannons is not suitable on a THUNDERSTORM, due to considerations of its engine technology and maneuverability constraints, etc.Let's be serious here, there are no such restrictions. The ability to carry only heavy missiles is specifically to prevent or at least disincentivize this craft from being used as a "universal" inteceptor, and I can understand why. If this prevents you from getting the best enjoyment out of the game simply add cannon slots to the craft.
Let's be serious here, there are no such restrictions.Didn't Solarius talk about craft power system integration at some point?
As far as heavy missiles are concerned though I see no reason why other light missiles should not have a "heavy" variant akin to the stingray.Diluting weapon choice. If that's not a concern, I see no other reason, either.
Missiles and cannons are quite different in how they are mounted, so I'm not sure it would make sense to give both to the Thunderstorm.As said, you can give them a 'plasma cannon pod' with an integral power supply. Aircraft hardpoints can take a whole bunch of different equipment besides just missiles.
I'd need new graphics, which may not be as easy...There are a bunch of relatively good fits in Piratez: Hunter-Killer, Sabre, Predator, M-Wing. I'm using HK sprites for Ravens and M-Wings for Arrow myself.
Now, let me ask the big question: is there a fighter craft which seems redundant, or completely useless? If yes, I could rework it into a new fighter craft as suggested in the first post. If not, I'd need new graphics, which may not be as easy (depending if I can plunder something from Piratez or some other mod, or I have to draw it from scratch).
MiG -> INTERCEPTOR -> RAVEN -> THUNDERSTORM -> TORMENTOR DRAGONFLY
SKYRANGER
SKYMARSHALL
FIRESTORM
LIGHTNING
SENTINEL (??)
Missiles and cannons are quite different in how they are mounted, so I'm not sure it would make sense to give both to the Thunderstorm. A separate Thunderstorm variant, like you suggested, would be more sensible, but I'd rather make it a different plane altogether, with similar tech level.
Let's be serious here, there are no such restrictions. The ability to carry only heavy missiles is specifically to prevent or at least disincentivize this craft from being used as a "universal" inteceptor, and I can understand why. If this prevents you from getting the best enjoyment out of the game simply add cannon slots to the craft.
As far as heavy missiles are concerned though I see no reason why other light missiles should not have a "heavy" variant akin to the stingray. They don't necessarily need to have double the ammuntion (balancing etc), but this would add to the usefulness (and utilarization by players).
As said, you can give them a 'plasma cannon pod' with an integral power supply. Aircraft hardpoints can take a whole bunch of different equipment besides just missiles.
I'm not sure that's a good idea from a design POV, but you can totally justify it to 'make sense'.
There are a bunch of relatively good fits in Piratez: Hunter-Killer, Sabre, Predator, M-Wing. I'm using HK sprites for Ravens and M-Wings for Arrow myself.
As to useless crafts, MiGs seem pretty useless to me, but I suppose reusing those is not really workable.
Edit: There's also this, and I don't recall which mod I pilfered it from. I even have several pedia images for it.
It's not inconceivable that weapons on hypersonic jets need to be stored inside inner compartments, and that kinetic cannons are not amenable to such settings.RL autocannons already can be carried internally, even if in many cases they aren't. F-35A has its GAU-12 within the fuselage, for example, while F-35B and Harriers carry theirs externally.
It's both the greater opposite air speed affecting the projectile...
Replace the cannon slot...I disagree when it comes do hypervelocity cannons like Gauss/MD. These must already have that problem solved to even work. I suppose making the autocannons a separate weapon type and removing that would work better.
This represents the cost of fighting at the hypersonic velocities: the use of cannon simply becomes impractical at that point.
I never build DRAGONFLY, SKYRANGER, and SKYMARSHALL. I find their lack of defensive capabilities to be a great disappointment. In general, I have Kitsune as a general rapid response platform...This is more of a problem of the Kitsune being available so early, not an issue with the Sky... craft.
This is more of a problem of the Kitsune being available so early, not an issue with the Sky... craft.
You also get a speed boost from the aircraft itself 'carrying' the bullets.
I disagree when it comes do hypervelocity cannons like Gauss/MD. These must already have that problem solved to even work. I suppose making the autocannons a separate weapon type and removing that would work better.
RL autocannons already can be carried internally, even if in many cases they aren't. F-35A has its GAU-12 within the fuselage, for example, while F-35B and Harriers carry theirs externally.
You also get a speed boost from the aircraft itself 'carrying' the bullets.
That should apply for beam weapons as well, though.
The SKYRANGER, SKYMARSHALL, and DRAGONFLY are too weak to be a main troop carrier. ... They are too easy to intercept by even a very basic enemy, which is a source of major disability.Yes, but barring the Kitsune, you won't have the luxury of getting a craft that has self-defence capability until way into the invasion. So this is again not a criticism of these craft in their own time and place, but a problem with the Kitsune invalidating that.
When maneuvering comes into play, the situation becomes quite distinct, though.You need an inertialess drive or similar (like a UFO ;D ) to be able to maneuver meaningfully at those speeds. BVR combat is a much bigger thing even today, anyway. This is one big criticism of any Xcomlike ever, there's a strange focus on WVR combat that hasn't existed in the real world since WW2.
This speed of beam propagation is still negligible compared to the speed of light, or a large fraction of thereof (even e.g. 10%). Note that even in the case of plasma, the beam consists of particles contained by a gravitic field.What does all of this have to do with mass drivers? And it doesn't matter if projectiles aren't relativistic since the craft aren't, either.
For all practical purposes, the beams are instantaneous.
Considering the laser, it's easier to shape the flow of photons inside the cannon than it is to e.g. orient a whole cannon...Look at the craft weapon images. All of them are barrel-shaped, so still need orienting. None of them are balls that spit out beams in whatever direction the user fancies.
Missiles and cannons are quite different in how they are mounted, so I'm not sure it would make sense to give both to the Thunderstorm.
How can you do any serious mission with DRAGONFLY if they are challenging enough even with OSPREY?Not all missions are that challenging, and you can have both Dragonfly and Osprey in service at the same time.
...I have no incentive to rush for SKRANGER when I have OSPREY.Skyranger is moderately faster and significantly longer-ranged. Osprey cannot cover the whole globe. Even quite a few Ospreys struggle. Skyranger has that covered, and comes in a package with Skyraider for time-critical missions.
As for armament, pretty much everything can be shot down with Avalanche without taking a backfire. I with there were some benefits to use anything besides Avalanche, but I don't think there is.Battleships, Cruisers and hunter-killers say hello.
Thanks for all the valuable input.->
What I gathered is, summed as briefly as possible:
1. No craft is universally useless (opinions vary by people, including myself), so it'd have to be a completely new craft.
2. Kitsune may come too early.
@Solarius, OP offered an alternative - a heavy missile version of the PIKE, akin to the stingray. Why wouldn't this be an option?
Still waiting for a comment on this one. We have a "heavy" version of the STINGRAY and of the STORMLANCE - why is the PIKE exempt from this?
Osprey cannot cover the whole globe.So what? By the time Osprey appears you should already have few bases with hangars around the world.
Battleships, Cruisers and hunter-killers say hello.And how PIKE / STORMLANCE, STINGRAY and GAUSS CANNON we are talking about makes difference? Even plasma beams will not help in this situation.
1. No craft is universally useless (opinions vary by people, including myself), so it'd have to be a completely new craft.Even SENTINEL and LIGHTNING? I haven't found any usage of this crafts in this thread.
So what? By the time Osprey appears you should already have few bases with hangars around the world.You must have at least 3 bases (and just as many strike teams, equipment, training, transformations, etc.) with Ospreys to even start getting global coverage. And an Osprey needs ~11+ hours to reach most of a hemisphere. A Dragonfly reaches about exactly half the world in ~10 hours. A Skyranger can get anywhere in ~8 hours. Each type means at least +1 craft needed for global coverage, and what if several missions pop up close to each other? Or you actually want to reach a terror site or a landed UFO before it takes off? Skyranger wins all these contests quite handily.
And how PIKE / STORMLANCE, STINGRAY and GAUSS CANNON we are talking about makes difference? Even plasma beams will not help in this situation.If you pay attention, I am not talking about those. I am merely responding to your claim that "pretty much everything can be shot down with Avalanche without taking a backfire." And once you are taking fire, Avalanche has such poor DPS and overall damage capacity per sortie that even Stingrays are better. Of course, you need an interceptor (or four) that's not made out of cardboard to field any of those against alien warships, but that's true for pretty much anything besides Fusion Balls and non-Battleships.
Even SENTINEL and LIGHTNING? I haven't found any usage of this crafts in this thread.Sentinel I've never gotten to use. That one might indeed be a dud.
You must have at least 3 bases (and just as many strike teams, equipment, training, transformations, etc.) with Ospreys to even start getting global coverage.Are you repeating the same error I made in my very first game in X-COM Files? No, you don't need several strike teams. You just transfer your OSPREY. It automatically gets transferred with all crew and items. You can even transfer crafts using their own engines for free.
Or you actually want to reach a terror site or a landed UFO before it takes off?Are you talking about time when invasion stars? But Kitsune will appear far earlier then this date. I am talking about pre-invasion time.
Sentinel I've never gotten to use. That one might indeed be a dud.The main problems with those crafts is that there is absolutely no reason for a craft to be both combat and troop carrier. With Sentinel there is a problem that there is no space mission doable with 8 agents. May be with the exception of last UAC mission where you can just grab a book and run before demons get you. And the biggest problem with Lightning is that after few days after you research it you will research Avenger, so why bother with Lighting? May be this 'pop-and-drop' layout is convenient, but more crew is generally better.
Lightning is a very convenient package of being an interceptor good enough to kill weak UFOs, an okay crew size for non-hardcore missions (like said UFOs, or a lot of the conspiracy stuff that's still happening) and a 'pop-and-drop' layout that's ideal for open field missions.
You just transfer your OSPREY. It automatically gets transferred with all crew and items. You can even transfer crafts using their own engines for free.Which is tedious (also setting up training all over again), takes enough time that critical missions (terrors and such) are usually not doable that way, you need enough bases and enough ammo and other consumables in all those bases. Plus whatever casualties you take (WIA, even if you savescum yourself out of KIA) need replacing and sick bay slots. And what if you get a bad sanity hit?
Are you talking about time when invasion stars? But Kitsune will appear far earlier then this date. I am talking about pre-invasion time.Monster terror sites, Blood Moons, some convoys and assassinations if you don't detect them fast enough, BL parties, Mansion defences, some story missions, the list goes on. And what do you do when several of them pop up in close succession?
The main problems with those crafts is that there is absolutely no reason for a craft to be both combat and troop carrier.First, a fighter-transporter is its own escort against hunter-killers.
And the biggest problem with Lightning is that after few days after you research it you will research Avenger, so why bother with Lighting? May be this 'pop-and-drop' layout is convenient, but more crew is generally better.Because a Lightning is more economical? You still want an Avenger, but once UFOs start popping up all over the place, it is no longer physically possible to do all landings/crash sites with just one craft. Or even two crafts. Flight, refueling, rearming and repair times won't allow it.
I assume we play different games.We actually do. Mine is somewhat modified, including changes to many craft. Although Osprey is still quite close to what it's in the base mod, only somewhat slower.
I never had a problem with doing all landings/crash sites with just one craft (Kitsume, Iron Fist and Avenger).What do you do when 6-8 UFOs land during e.g. a base-creation mission? A single craft won't have time to go through even two of them before they take off again. Maybe you can get a second one with one of the endgame craft and a third-fourth with a second landing, but that's that.
What do you do when 6-8 UFOs land during e.g. a base-creation mission? A single craft won't have time to go through even two of them before they take off again.Depending on where on geosphere this event occurs and how simultaneously they land it may be possible to apprehend them all with single craft. Or just leave them alone, you cannot prevent base construction anyway, and it is not strictly required to get them all. And this event is quite rare. And who will be in additional crafts? Rookies?
but Kitsune is just too good.Seriously, why Kitsune is in a game in the first place? Maybe I missed that discussion. I know Kiri-Kai organization (or something similar) is part of an official lore, but I don't remember about Kitsune. In either case lore alone is not a reason to introduce a craft that make obsolete every troop carrier until "Iron Fist" before they even gets researched.
Depending on where on geosphere this event occurs and how simultaneously they land it may be possible to apprehend them all with single craft.Unless they land close by, it isn't. Base missions have 6 UFOs, most of which land for 2x4 hours, and the Battleship lands only once for five, so it's got to be the first or second target. Even the Avenger can fly to about a quarter of the globe (which I think is a reasonably average distance) 4-5 times in 8-10 hours, and then needs most of a day for refueling (and at least three hours for another mission if you launch it early, so the UFOs are most likely gone by then). Unless you want to waste time and fuel tailing them to get a leg up on the first mission, which is worse. And of course the aliens will choose to build their base nowhere near where the Avenger is currently stationed :P, so getting 4-5 out of 6 UFOs is not a guarantee.
Or just leave them alone, you cannot prevent base construction anyway, and it is not strictly required to get them all.No, but I want to loot them all for cash, Elerium and score (I get paid by score 8) ).
And this event is quite rare.About 10% per month once your're well into the second year of the invasion. Kinda rare, yes.
And who will be in additional crafts? Rookies?The second and third strike team and/or their backups. You spread your missions around with multiple strike bases. Rookies with training and transformations are also kinda passable.
Seriously, why Kitsune is in a game in the first place?AFAIK, it's something Solarius either made up or adapted from somewhere obscure. Why it comes when it does, well, he's kinda attached to it. :D
"Heavy Pike Launcher"? :P Doesn't the same problem already exist for Stingray and Stormlance? I'd give all these topics a few dozen man-hours and call it a day.
Or just leave them as they are. I don't think it's such a big deal since the game still reminds the player that they can now buy/manufacture both weapons, so the curious can go check out the Pedia and others can skip straight to acquisition.
But it's not how the Stingray works. There are two projects, but the second one has cost 0, so is unlocked immediately.
If you guys think it's okay, then I'll stick with it and won't touch the older projects.
Very strange comment. How can you do any serious mission with DRAGONFLY if they are challenging enough even with OSPREY?
In my playthroughs I always get Kitsune far earlier then I research SKRANGER. It, of course depends on priorities, and I have no incentive to rush for SKRANGER when I have OSPREY.
But CF105-ARROW is not designed for fighting UFOs. It's main purpose is to spot cult mansions. Also it can catch syndicate's DRAGONFLYs while "Little Bird" cannot.
As for armament, pretty much everything can be shot down with Avalanche without taking a backfire. I with there were some benefits to use anything besides Avalanche, but I don't think there is.
For now I set it up the same as the earlier missiles. It can easily be changed by simply editing research costs.
A question about the planned heavy version of the Pike: what should it require (besides the Pike itself)? I don't want to give it exactly the same prerequisites, because then you'd only get one article automatically displayed, and that isn't elegant. Then again, I can't think of any prerequisites which wouldn't feel forced.
I think, it would suffice to merely enable the use of cannons everywhere the beams and heavy missiles could be used.
Why not have a downrated/inferior version of the beam weapons for "terrestial" interceptors? I don't know how progression is balance wise of the top of my head, but giving the player at least some option to utilize more advanced technologies with older aircraft might be beneficial. I distinctly remember having access to weapons but no aircraft able to actually mount them.
Without knowing what the "science"/lore behind the laser/beam weapons is and why they can't be mounted on "regular" aircraft? Probably just lower energy output i.e. less damage.
What exactely is the (in-game) reason X-COM can cram plasma beam weapons inside a standard tank chassis, but not inside aircraft?
You'd think that the latter would have higher priority, given that you have to shoot down UFOs in order to use tank-mounted plasma weapons on aliens. Why would X-Com design a weapon that can't be mounted on any of the aircraft they have access to? Sure, balancing, but is there an in-universe explanation? At that point X-Com doesn't even know if/when they will get access to better aircraft/technology, but they have no trouble mounting said weapons to existing HWPs. I can understand that "older" craft (MIG-31, ARROW) would have trouble retrofitting advanced weapoinry, but you'd think that X-Com would have taken this into account when they start to design their own alien-tech based crafts.
Same reason, really. And also balance.
But, as I said, I kinda like the implications of this, including having to design and deploy new platforms for actually using your shiny Wunderwaffen.Then why can't the interceptor - a craft specifically designed to engange UFOs and employing alien technology - use laser cannons? Why can't any of the other non-elerium fueled crafts apart from the one X-Com finds - by chance - in a lake, which already comes with said weapons? What exactely is the point of having the laser cannon at this position in the reasearch tree when it is pointless unless much later in the game?
...interceptor - a craft specifically designed to engange UFOs and employing alien technology...I suppose it's another case of Solarius having a rather specific interpretation of 'alien engineering' used by various conspiracies. I imagine it's not alien tech per se, it's more like 2096 tech base transported back into 1996.
What reasons then? I didn't list any, you didn't list any and lore doesn't give any explanation either.
Why can X-Com fit laser and plasma weaponry into an existing tank chassis but not inside an airframe, let alone one that has been specifically designed to incorporate alien technology?
And it's just kind of strange that you get the laser beam so early on, but the only craft that can actually mount it is an alien craft that crashed into lake Michigan and which X-Com found by chance and which just so happens to come with laser cannons that are compatible if not identical to the ones X-Com uses.
I suppose it's another case of Solarius having a rather specific interpretation of 'alien engineering' used by various conspiracies. I imagine it's not alien tech per se, it's more like 2096 tech base transported back into 1996.
Anyway, my headcanon has always been that the Interceptor is some variant of the F-22, and I'm just ignoring the implications. :D
Something something power systems something something energy source something something quantum.That's a lot of snark there. :P You might have just said "Yeah, I could have made a separate laser weapon that's only compatible with the Starfighter and otherwise works pretty much the same as the regular version. Would the mod be better for it, excluding shutting down one or two nitpickers?".
Vanilla said so.Vanilla was never very serious about it's lore. Gollop has always made games for people to play, not experience. Phoenix Point is a classic example of him dropping the ball on atmosphere (despite all the work that went into it) while providing okayish to pretty damn good gameplay.
Something something power systems something something energy source something something quantum.
I don't know. Vanilla said so. Must be some in-universe reason. I am not dying to uncover it.There is no tracked plasma HWP in vanilla and vanilla lets you fit beam weapons onto interceptors. "Vanilla said so" isn't an argument here Solarius.
That's a lot of snark there. :P You might have just said "Yeah, I could have made a separate laser weapon that's only compatible with the Starfighter and otherwise works pretty much the same as the regular version. Would the mod be better for it, excluding shutting down one or two nitpickers?".
Then again, we do have half a dozen variants of 9mm pistol in the game. :P
Vanilla was never very serious about it's lore. Gollop has always made games for people to play, not experience. Phoenix Point is a classic example of him dropping the ball on atmosphere (despite all the work that went into it) while providing okayish to pretty damn good gameplay.
There is no tracked plasma HWP in vanilla and vanilla lets you fit beam weapons onto interceptors. "Vanilla said so" isn't an argument here Solarius.
You've asked me to give you details regarding a low-powered variant of the laser. I am asking you for the in-game reasons - if there are any - that X-Com can't mount those weapons onto crafts specifically desinged to counter UFOs. If you want me to give you details I am going to need details.
And, again, why is the only craft that can actually utilize the laser cannon at that point in the game a crashed spacefighter that X-Com pulled form the bottom of a lake? What is the motivation behind designing and building a craft weapon when you have no actual craft that can utilize it and the one craft you come accross by chance already happens to come with said laser cannons?
This is just a bit disjointed if you ask me. Why not link the discovery of said craft (or as a fallback other advanced craft that can acutally use this) and the research of said cannons?
Then again, I don't exactly mind the idea of having an earlier laser weapon. I just don't really understand it yet.I don't think that's the problem here. We already have that. What we don't have is a craft to mount it on. Some sort of Thunderstorm analogue for beam weapons.
This is a strawman argument. By this logic, nothing that isn't in vanilla should ever be modded in. I encourage you to think about this a bit more, because I don't think we're on the same page here.If there's a strawman here, it's yours. krautbernd's argument was: there's no reasoning given; Solarius says it's the same as vanilla but vanilla is different wrt mounting beam weapons onto tanks and (air)craft. If you change the end result, you need to either change the base assumptions as well, or at least elaborate why they remain the same while the end result is different. Which includes specifying what the assumptions actually are.
KitsuneEr, Kitsune doesn't have lasers, does it?
Another would be to do just hardcode laser weapon on this craft, like with the Starfighter (it wasn't possible back when I made Kitsune).Starfighter lasers are hardcoded? How? Is this some 2.6 thing?
Can't a man just be non-ironically honest on the internet?Of course not! :P
Then again, I don't exactly mind the idea of having an earlier laser weapon. I just don't really understand it yet.
This is a strawman argument. By this logic, nothing that isn't in vanilla should ever be modded in. I encourage you to think about this a bit more, because I don't think we're on the same page here.
Same reason, really. And also balance.
I don't know. Vanilla said so. Must be some in-universe reason. I am not dying to uncover it.No Solarius, vanilla has no tracked plasma variant, only XCF. Somehow "your" X-COM has no problem with fitting beam weapons to an existing tank chassis, but can't fit them to aircraft X-COM designed from scratch. Vanilla isn't something you can invoke as a defense here.
Something something power systems something something energy source something something quantum.No Solarius, the question was why X-COM would design a weapon that doesn't fit any craft that X-COM has access to or any hope of obtaining in the near future. The laser cannon can be researched relatively early in the game and just requires any interrogated alien. It only requires a standard lab. There is no "hunt the engineer" involved here. Why does X-COM design a craft laser cannon which is apparently also produced and sold by a third party when there are no craft that can actually use said weapon apart from that one alien craft that just so happens to have crashed into Lake Michigan which X-COM has no idea exists and which is not connected to the research topic in any way and already comes with two laser cannons free of charge?
Er, Kitsune doesn't have lasers, does it?No, it doesn't. I have no idea how the Kitsune even factors into this or why Solarius brought it up. Reminder: The first "actual" craft that can use beam weapons is the Lightning, which is quite a bit further down the tech tree than the laser cannon.
With the advent of the gauss cannon, frankly, there's no need to have any other armament on a craft.I'm not entirely sure why the 'power systems' argument doesn't apply to Gauss and Mass Driver weapons, and these can be mounted on any craft that used to deploy autocannons.
Some mount points may admit only light missiles, but not the heavy ones. However, all mount points that admin light missiles should also admit the heavy ones.Er, that's a bit contradictory, isn't it? :P
In general, all mount points should admit beams and cannons.I think that's going too far. IRL jet fighters can't mount any random weapon on any hardpoint. Some are too big or too cumbersome, and most don't work with the avionics without a considerable upgrade to the whole vehicle.
Now, Elerium could be a power source for a laser.Elerium is the power source for Laser Cannons in XCF going by research requirements.
However, it might also be powered by an isotope reactor of some sort.Any remotely realistic nuclear reactor is not going to fit on a fighter jet. And most non-realistic Earth-based stuff in XCF seems to operate on stolen alien tech.
The chemical lasers at the NIF are more than sufficient to create a fusion reaction.NIF has gotten fusion ignition exactly once in 2021, and has been unable to replicate that.
More like early laser craft. The current laser is sorta-kinda early, but you can do nothing with it, and by the time you can it's obsolete.