OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: Meridian on March 13, 2016, 06:02:20 pm
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Hi,
Since nothing like that exists, I decided to create a thread for buff requests... let's work together to make things useful.
Today I'd like to propose a buff for the Alliance Advisor.
I tried the advisor several times (on and off camera) and unfortunately have to say, he's quite useless.
Cons:
- takes 12(!) space in stores
- takes one space in craft
- is super weak (tus, stamina, health, armor, everything, ...)
- score penalty for death (I think based on bootypedia... I never actually tried it)
- requires LoS for mind probe
Neutral:
- has heal, but has to stay far behind... I used his heal only once, instead I use gals themselves or dedicated field medic
- has mind probe, but cannot use it over any safe distance
Pros:
- has mind probe
Summary:
- he's literally waste of space
- the healing can be done in million other ways, so I cannot really count it under Pros
- early mind probe is nice... but you can barely use it
- after you get your own mind probe, the advisor is dead weight
Recommendation:
- make advisor's mind probe work without LoS as counter-weight to all his cons... I think his cons currently out-weight his pros at least 4:1
- it you think it's too much, take away his healing
- if still too much, make mind probe cost 55% of TUs, so that it can be used only once
Yours truly,
M.
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Fully agree! If you get him before field surgery kits and rum, his healing is kind of nice since it is more hp/fatal wounds (also meaning shorter recovery time). But once you can heal yourself easily, it's really not worth bringing him for a front line mind probe..
If we could have something like requires LoF instead of LoS (ie could shoot at the target, despite not being within 20 tiles) that would already help. But the guy is supposedly skilled in voodoo, not just using a scanner, so even LoF shouldn't be necessary.
Also, with the possibility of multiple soldier types, he should be one, and thus live in barracks, with his default armor being the current one and being unable to wear other armors (actually, having his on combat armor could be neat once you research tac armor).
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It's not actually that easy to get a mind probe at all (unless you have blind luck on your side). So often he is your only means of using this capability. After reading this, I've upgraded his healing speed and number of charges, as well as the speed of his Ident device, and his Bravery (it takes balls to go into a combat zone unarmed). Making him a Soldier would be a really good idea too, saves all that excess storage/tank space and makes more sense too. And allows for an upgrade too :) He will be outphased completely once Hybrids become a type of hire-able soldiers.
However, I feel like making him a 'press this button to identify everything' guy would be un-fun, making the process retardedly simple, and depreciating research as means of gaining knowledge on enemies. You can use him effectively, but this requires effort (isolating the target so the Advisor can safely pop up and identify it). This way it's not 'push this to get stats' but 'use head to retrieve stats'.
I agree he becomes useless once you have a spare medic and a Mind Probe, that is just as planned.
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Fair enough. You have a point.
For some people it will however remain "f*ck it, I don't care about stats anyway" (or worse "nevermind, I'll look it up in the ruleset") instead of "push this to get stats".
My hope of having useful stuff doesn't die here, there will be more suggestions coming in...
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(or worse "nevermind, I'll look it up in the ruleset") instead of "push this to get stats".
I don't care about such people. Mind probe is a very powerful ability IMO.
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How about making his mind probe ability not requiring LoS but beeing in a 20ish tile distance? No mind probing from anywhere on the map, but still better than LoS.
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Fair enough. You have a point.
For some people it will however remain "f*ck it, I don't care about stats anyway" (or worse "nevermind, I'll look it up in the ruleset") instead of "push this to get stats".
My hope of having useful stuff doesn't die here, there will be more suggestions coming in...
For me, it's "F* it, I'll just stun this new guy and let the brainerz figure it out later". Of course, it doesn't work with heavily armored enemies, but you rarely have the luxury of isolating a heavily armored enemy to bring the slow advisor within range (and you don't meet them that often in the early game when the advisor would otherwise be relevant).
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Advisor needs an assistant girl who leads the way and drop smoke bombs everywhere :)
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Advisor needs an assistant girl who leads the way and drop smoke bombs everywhere :)
Exactly! And if needed, kills anything that unexpectedly threatens him :) If you know how to use it, no boost is needed :) (although he'll get a Mindprobe of Haste on a higher stage, once he becomes an upgradeable unit :) )
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Exactly! And if needed, kills anything that unexpectedly threatens him :) If you know how to use it, no boost is needed :) (although he'll get a Mindprobe of Haste on a higher stage, once he becomes an upgradeable unit :) )
Exactly! That's why I'm convinced he's not worth it.
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To each their own :) Might you find attack dogs or Superheroes useful! If all of them suck, then I will cover my head in ash :)
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Next on the list for buffing: holdout pistol and small revolver.
I get that their perk is their one square size. But I fail to imagine a situation where they might be useful other than for accuracy skill training on disarmed enemies. And I think that is not the use Dioxine intended.
The damage is too low to use them at short range. You will most likely not kill with one shot and then they shoot back.
They are not accurate enough for longer range.
We could really use some ammo that did damage to tu like the spear, so you can remove tu's for reaction fire from a distance. Maybe acid ammo or fire ammo can get that? Or shotguns?
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They are basically enemy-only weapons for now. So no, no buff needed, they were intended to be useless to the player.
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And what about tu damage for shotguns? Would be a boost for them without increasing damage.
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That's an interesting idea about these Shotguns (at least for their low-damage pellet AP ammo). I will consider this. However this could be an exploit - it'll be hard to strike a middle ground between useless and OP (it can only do TU damage if it does HP damage).
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To each their own :) Might you find attack dogs or Superheroes useful! If all of them suck, then I will cover my head in ash :)
Yes, I just switched to doggies... they make excellent suicide bombers, love it.
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Doggies are awesome, heroes sucking are their own reward.
I sent green lighter out and my sides are still in pilgrimage in Tibet.
Edit: Many shotguns are not very good because armored targets resist them easily and in the situations were they would help, a machine gun or a rifle will work equally well without its drawbacks. It shows in Meridian's LP and myself I only favor the blunderbuss.
Knowing that irl shotguns are the most damaging firearm besides a rocket how about making them apply a small damage to health no matter what? If 10% of damage means 1-3 damage, multiplied by 6 pellets on average means 6-18 damage a point blank shot.
If it's not possible perhaps simply raising their damage to be at least as good as a pistol bullet would make them desirable close range weapons.
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If it's not possible perhaps simply raising their damage to be at least as good as a pistol bullet would make them desirable close range weapons.
That's the cheaty way out of this. Nope.
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That's the cheaty way out of this. Nope.
Indeed, simply changing the damage number is the way to mod.
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Well you can always do a Warboy and increase the damage per pellet to 50 or 60, I'm sure everyone will love this, but that's not how I do things :P
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Shotguns would be more interesting if the armor was applied once on the total of pellets.
For example When a "power 63" shell made of 7 pellets hits, if 4 pellets hit a target, that's 36 damage (4/7 of 63) minus armor.
However this would seriously conflict(compte) with the role of the melee weapons.
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The peculiarity of the shotgun lies in its ability to do great damage to an unarmored target (eg 18x7 = 126 average damage if all pellets hit, as opposed to the rifle which does 30; even aganist armor = 10, twice as much as an unarmored enemy has, that's 8x7 = 56, while rifle = 20), while being awfully ineffective versus armored ones. I won't be changing shotguns. As an added bonus, your chance to hit from close-mid range is substantially higher.
(maaaybe I'll add a lil' bit of armor damage lol)
The high-end models have enough power per pellet to satisfy your needs. Why not buy the Arena Flak Cannon? :)
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Maybe we just need more tough but unarmoured ennemies where shotguns pellets would be great. Or even just unarmoured enemies. I really like shotguns in vanilla against sections and floaters when breaching UFOs. On weaker enemies, you don't even need all the pellets to hit in order to kill, making the shotgun the most reliable weapon by far.
Also, some shotguns (military, I think and CAWS, of course) have good solid slugs that are way better than rifles close in, with good accuracy and better damage.
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I'd love to jump in this conversation but all my knowledge is horribly out of date and trying to focus on my mid-terms.
Soon, Piratez, I shall return for the summer!
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Yes military shotgun and CAWS are reliable for breaching ships, other shotguns should have the slug option so at least you can go in with both type of ammo and load up accordingly. But as there is many, many armored enemies, and pellets only shine against one, maybe two enemies afaik.
Armor damage is a good idea, repeated shots will shred the enemy and you'd want to hide from a guy with a sawed off.
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How is the damage on shotgun pellets calculated? Does each pellet get a seperate damage roll? If that is the case, the damage on pellets need not be increased dramatically to have an effect on armored enemies. The damage only needs to be high enough that a 200% damage roll can penetrate the armor. With the high number of pellets, you get a decent chance one of them gets a high roll and you do a little bit of damage.
Example calculation:
The shotgun shells for the light and military shotgun do 18 damage per pellet, so a maximum of 36. Warrior armor has 80% piercing and 30 armor. 36*0.8 = 28.8, so in warrior armor you are compleately immune to these shotgun shells. Bumping the damage to 20 per pellet would mean you can take at least a little bit of damage.
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Does each pellet get a seperate damage roll?
Yes. This is why shotguns are so hard to balance : If there are 10 pellets, adding 1 to power increases average damage by 10, and 1 point of armor reduces average damage by 10.
The peculiarity of the shotgun lies in its ability to do great damage to an unarmored target
No matter how better they can kill these units, it's a hard bargain for being powerless against some enemies which you find unexpectedly and in many missions (*). Especially for a short-range, line-of-sight weapon... When you discover the problem, you're in very bad position, typically in close quarters indoors where no long-range fire can assist, and too close to take cover or retreat.
(*) I know randomness is very random, but my own experience had "thougher-than-the-others" enemies in one ship out of three.
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The peculiarity of the shotgun lies in its ability to do great damage to an unarmored target (eg 18x7 = 126 average damage if all pellets hit, as opposed to the rifle which does 30; even aganist armor = 10, twice as much as an unarmored enemy has, that's 8x7 = 56, while rifle = 20), while being awfully ineffective versus armored ones. I won't be changing shotguns. As an added bonus, your chance to hit from close-mid range is substantially higher.
(maaaybe I'll add a lil' bit of armor damage lol)
The high-end models have enough power per pellet to satisfy your needs. Why not buy the Arena Flak Cannon? :)
Personally I find most Shotguns fantastic, especially in the early game where most enemies aren't seriously well-armored. The Sawed-off Double-Barreled Shotgun makes a fantastic sidearm, and the Combat Shotgun and Blunderbuss have an excellent amount of damage output. I do think, however, that Shotguns in general should get a small range buff, because right now you need to get in really close, so close that a sword is almost always the more effective method. Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Is the snap/auto range buff on the Combat Shotgun enough to be used for other shotguns? Or should I add 1-2 tiles more to Snap/Auto ranges?
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Did some shotgun testing... Targets were government military police and pilot.
The good:
Sawed off and double barrel are good enough. The sawed off is a nice sidearm for the belt, Some acid ammo for it would be nice. Blunderbus kills well enough. CAWS with scatter ammo also does good damage. Combat shotgun also has sufficient damage output because of auto, but it is a bit on the weak side.
The bad:
Heavy shotgun... just too weak compared to the good ones. I can shoot a double barrel/sawed off in auto and reload as fast as two shots from the heavy. And the double barrel/sawed off do more damage. The military and domestic shotgun shoot a bit faster but do even less damage with pellets.
Heavy with slugs: test is point blank to the back of the military police. Two shots are not enough most of the time. Problem is, the sawed off has a good chance to kill with two shots in the same situation and is faster even with reload. As slugs are supposed to be better than buckshot vs a (medium) armored enemy, I would rate the slugs as not doing their intended job. I cranked up the damage of the slugs to 35 and that was enough to get a better performance than the sawed off. The CAWS with scatter had about the same performance. Problem is, the 35 damage slugs were too good vs unarmored targets. Not sure how to find a sweet spot here.
So the heavy is compleately useless. With pellets, the military and the domestic are useless as well. Useless meaning the cheap double barrel and sawed off are better.
The military is not bad with AP ammo though as that is very accurate and bad shooters can hit with it. The domestic is the only shotgun that has (weak) rubber ammo but stun damage is always useful.
My suggestion would be to make the military and domestic pellets the same as the double barrel buckshot. The heavy should have a bit more damage than these to justify it's existance. Combat shoutgun pellets could use one more damage point.
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So in short, what I see from this analysis, debuff buckshot (from 22x8 to 20x10 perhaps), and buff mil and heavy shotguns (perhaps by bumping their Snap range to 8, so the slugs work better - the hv. shotgun fires 28x3 slugs which is already equivalent to a rifle's autoshot). Combat shotty is too weak with 20x5, maybe up to 22x5. CAWS might use a slight range increase too.
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The military shotgun range has proven to be good enough, with slugs you could hit target on a moderate distance without exposing yourself too much.
Quick question, does each pellets do their own fatal wounds?
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1) So I thought, but that strongly depends on soldier's Strength. Also it's supposed to be an overall bit better weapon than all these shotguns (except Blunderbuss and CAWS).
2) Yes.
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Dioxine, before you think about nerving buckshot, maybe you should try it out first to see what it does. It is fine the way it is.
The double barrel is also used quite often by enemies. Right now it is a threat. If you reduce the damage, gals in warrior armor will just be laughing at it.
Balancing the shotguns with accuracy won't work. Shotgun pellets don't hit the same way normal bullets do. Even if you have >100% accuracy on the shot, lots of pellets will miss at a distance of 8 tiles. Compared to a 3 shot auto on a rifle with 100%, where all bullets hit.
I did some more testing, firing the heavy with slugs at a distance of 8 tiles with over 100% accuracy. 1 pellet will always hit. about 30% of the time 2 pellets will hit. haven't seen all 3 pellets hit so far.
So no, the heavy slugs are definately not the same as a 3 round auto from a rifle. And if they where the same, why use a shotgun and not the rifle?
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Show me that rifle with 100% autofire accuracy. You'll get maybe 50-60% with maxed out stats. Otoh 100% acc is nothing special for a shotgun, you can even get 200%. Also the Warrior armor was specifically designed to stop such low-powered projectiles, and the Buckshot is supposed to be 'average' as far as shotguns go, not 'good' or 'excellent'.
Also don't insult me with phrases like 'you should try it out first'. Who the f*ck do you think I am, a kid who just started playing with rulesets? Who didn't play his own game? I need to balance shotguns towards other types of weapons too. If I make them too powerful, it's a slippery slope - then I'll have to buff pistols, then rifles, then machine guns, etc.
The aim was to recreate shotguns in some way resembling reality. It is true that tactical situations found in Piratez rarely favor shotguns, but this is not an argument for buffing shotguns. Which weapon is better and which is worse is determined by the realities of a conflict. Looks like the conflict currently described in Piratez does not favor shotguns.
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Dioxine, I do no mean to insult you. But when you are saying buckshot needs to be nerved I wonder why you think it it overpowered. The fact that it is better than other weapons that suck don't make it overpowered, just useful.
The problem with warrior armor is that any bullet that does less than 22 damage is harmless. Beeing invulnerable is not fun. You may like it, but I do not.
Someone else said it already. Guns should kill.
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Guns should kill and armor should protect. Hum.. balancing a mod is tricky, and Dioxine has the trickiest of them all to balance.
In this case, buckshot is supposed to be bad against anything in some kind of armor. It's there to take out unarmoured enemies. The solid slug is supposed to be for armored target and if the buckshot is better than the slug, then it is not right. That's why Dioxine wants to lower the damage but increase pellets: a move that leaves damage unchanged against unarmoured enemies but lowers the damage against armored ones. He's trying to make the shotgun behave like he envisions it in his mod.
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Show me that rifle with 100% autofire accuracy.
Easy. Stand next to your target, you have 100% accuracy.
Read the discussion here: https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Firing_Accuracy_Testing (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Firing_Accuracy_Testing)
(assuming openxcom has similar firing mechanics)
Accuracy displayed is not actual accuracy. A rifle that has a stated 45% accuracy actually has 68% accuracy at range 3 tiles.
On the flip side, a shotgun with 100% stated accuracy does not hit all bullets at range 3 tiles.
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@ Eddie: on the flip side, the proposed change to buckshot up to 10 pellets, may increase the rate of stunned enemies now, due to the buff on stun results to damage taken. :)
I think Dioxine's desire to tier the shotguns, and your field testing are going to yield good results.
As far as not wanting invulnerability... there are simple solutions. Just don't play with armor. Or limit yourself etc.
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Another comment on the shotgun discussion which is similar to this comment.
Edit: Many shotguns are not very good because armored targets resist them easily and in the situations were they would help, a machine gun or a rifle will work equally well without its drawbacks. It shows in Meridian's LP and myself I only favor the blunderbuss.
Shotgun stats look good on paper. So I tried them out a bit initially, but found they are not so good for the following reasons:
1. The long range gals get heavy weapons, sniper rifle or similar. Much better accuracy on long range than any shotgun.
2. The short range gals for storming ufos or buildings get usually a strong melee weapon, which deals much more damage than any shotgun.
3. For the rare cases where you would need a medium range weapon like shotgun there are plenty of good alternatives like ninja stars, fuso knives, heavy pistols, powder bomb .... Those alternatives are light and fit easily into the quickdraw slot of every gal, which does a shotgun not.
So in the end, there is not much need for a large dedicated medium range weapon, even if the stats were a little bit improved.
Of course everybody has his own playstyle, but with the current balancing I see no reason to equip a shotgun on any gal (which is no problem, because there are dozens of other cool weapons). Maybe if the shotguns had a special ability like discussed above: TU, stamina, lots of stun, or morale damage would be an interesting selling point.
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If you criticize invulnerability, you'll always have a field day in this mod - with this many tiers of weapons and armors, you will always find armor big enough and a weapon weak enough to prove that something is invulnerable to something.
Also rifle's accuracy 100% from 1 tile is inconsequential - you're able to rack up far more damage with even a small melee weapon if you're that close (even if not all attacks hit), not even mentioning axes, maces and rapiers.
Shotguns will have more uses if I ever manage to make the 'origins' project I'm starting now - basically, you start out sooner, with much less stuff, and face much more lower-level challenges, where lack of armor on both sides will make these fights extra bloody, and shotguns very killy. There also will be some enemies especially weak to shotguns to make more room for a place for a shotgun specialist in a party. But that's in the future. For now, all starting shotguns below Blunderbuss are already outdated since Day 1, that's the truth (with the CS getting sweet Fire ammo being an exception). So yes, most of them was meant to 'suck' in comparison to the best stuff you currently have on Day 1.
I might also reduce all gal's armor by 5, if the feeling of invulnerability is too strong.
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I think setting a blanket game rule like "every attack of power>0 reduces the armor by 1" would do a lot of good for the invulnerability cases, while being nearly invisible in the many cases where a character gets killed by 1 or 2 attacks anyway.
Seemingly unkillable characters could go down after enough efforts. Shotgun blasts against armored units may still cause no immediate health damage, but will be helpful in the longer term.
Even for player armors, it's a good thing because the pressure will go up during long battles, as the "tank girls" defense gets lower and lower.
(A bottom limit could be set, like 33% or 50% of the original value)
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Well it can't be set to a value, the damage will continue until armor = 0. If I added armor damage to shotguns, they'd wear down even a powered armor rather quickly. Not sure if this is how it should work. Unless the whole armor mechanic was reworked to be based more on Resistances and less on Armor Values.
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I was thinking a hard-coded change (additional case) in BattleUnit::damage(), the same way there is the vanilla rule that damages armor when the target loses hit points. An additional rule, since the cases are exclusive.
I'm sorry if it's a stupid idea, I don't even know the full range of armors and damage of Piratez, so I can't be sure if it would make sense.
I just checked, it's more than the few lines of code that I hoped it would involve, because apparently BattleUnit doesn't expose the original armor values directly. The data would need to be taken from the BattelUnit's _armor->getFrontArmor(), _armor->getSideArmor() or _armor->getRearArmor()
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No, definitely not a stupid idea, I wasn't saying it was. But I try to base the mod on the codebase that is present... Also, while this seems interesting, it'd add another variable to balance out :) Another way of doing this would be some sort of Armor Damage Threshold - any attack stronger than it would do normal armor damage (like a penetrating shot would). The example formula (that'd replace current damage formula if the threshold is defined) would be something like:
Armor damage = 0.1 * (Attack Damage - Armor Damage Threshold)
Instead of: Armor damage = 0.1 * (Attack Damage - Current Armor Value)
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No, definitely not a stupid idea, I wasn't saying it was. But I try to base the mod on the codebase that is present... Also, while this seems interesting, it'd add another variable to balance out :) Another way of doing this would be some sort of Armor Damage Threshold - any attack stronger than it would do normal armor damage (like a penetrating shot would). The example formula (that'd replace current damage formula if the threshold is defined) would be something like:
Armor damage = 0.1 * (Attack Damage - Armor Damage Threshold)
Instead of: Armor damage = 0.1 * (Attack Damage - Current Armor Value)
This is on TODO for 3.0 or after it. Probably first thin I will add is how damage react to armor. All it will be up to modder. Flat/Percent/Random/Based on hand items (shields anyone?), any thing you want (or at least what you mange to write).
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So in short, what I see from this analysis, debuff buckshot (from 22x8 to 20x10 perhaps), and buff mil and heavy shotguns (perhaps by bumping their Snap range to 8, so the slugs work better - the hv. shotgun fires 28x3 slugs which is already equivalent to a rifle's autoshot). Combat shotty is too weak with 20x5, maybe up to 22x5. CAWS might use a slight range increase too.
That could work, personally, I think that giving Shotguns armor damage would be a quick way to make them the end-all-be-all weapon of choice, I think that the DB and SDB are fine as they are, a long-term solution would be to give them different ammunition available, maybe acid rounds or an upgrade to them so you could produce a laser version of them (imagine how awesome it would be to have a sawed-off laser shotgun, makes me drool thinking about it), much like what you have done with the Tommy Gun. The Combat Shotgun is good, but could probably use a small buff, your suggestion of 20x5 > 22x5 would probably be enough to see them used more often. Again, seeing some different ammunition for the Combat Shotgun would increase its longevity, and give more reason to pay its costly price tag. The Domestic and Heavy Shotguns I don't have too much experience with, I find the Heavy SG to be good with what little experience I have with it, but it could maybe benefit from higher range and/or accuracy. The Domestic Shotgun I have never used, its damage just seems too low. Maybe a buff from 18 DPP (Damage Per Pellet) to 20 DPP would help it out, but it is also unique by being able to chamber stun rounds, a little indecisive on that one. Hopefully these suggestions help out, I can mess with the ruleset and see what these changes would od if you would like, but I think this would make Shotguns in general better, without being OP. :D
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1) Shotgun armor damage: yes, that's what I fear. If you want to use them in that role, sure, there's acid ammo.
2) DBS & SO were supposed to fade into obscurity as the game progresses, but that lazor ammo is indeed tempting! Not sure the role, probably just the same but with more damage & bit less pellets. This has to be more advanced than EP ammo and probably would require rebuilding the weapon. What you get would be a weaker version of the Space Rangers Shotgun. The earliest laser shotgun was supposed to be the Niner/EP, but nobody will use that weapon ever anyway :)
3) Combat Shotgun does get incendiary ammo when you research Explosive Munitions.
4) Domestic shotgun is supposed to be a piece of junk.
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That could work, personally, I think that giving Shotguns armor damage would be a quick way to make them the end-all-be-all weapon of choice
I doubt that. In most cases, having a weapon which can actually kill your target is much better than one that can slowly wear them down. Taking a security guard in personal armor, you are much better tossing ~2 black powder bombs their way or charging with a melee weapon than trying to wear them down with shotguns. And if you really need to lower something's armor (like a high rank target that you want to stun), you're better off with acid flasks which aren't that hard to get.
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In most cases, having a weapon which can actually kill your target is much better than one that can slowly wear them down.
This "10%-effectiveness against armors" is the weakness that you get in exchange for the advantage of "200%-effectiveness against unarmored groups"
At 10%-effectiveness, I would take the risk for half of my frontwomen. At 0%, this is just too risky that I don't have enough weapons/ammo to complete the mission.
Also, consider how the AI is rudimentary, it doesn't choose a weapon, and doesn't care if your gals are armored or not. If the damage system includes such "chip damage", the enemy's mindless shooting becomes more serious, because every hit does something.
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1) Shotgun armor damage: yes, that's what I fear. If you want to use them in that role, sure, there's acid ammo.
2) DBS & SO were supposed to fade into obscurity as the game progresses, but that lazor ammo is indeed tempting! Not sure the role, probably just the same but with more damage & bit less pellets. This has to be more advanced than EP ammo and probably would require rebuilding the weapon. What you get would be a weaker version of the Space Rangers Shotgun. The earliest laser shotgun was supposed to be the Niner/EP, but nobody will use that weapon ever anyway :)
3) Combat Shotgun does get incendiary ammo when you research Explosive Munitions.
4) Domestic shotgun is supposed to be a piece of junk.
Imagine a SO with 30x6 pellets *drools* me wanty. (Maybe a lazor SO and DB should get a *small* accuracy buff, to keep them relevant, they could be like a poor-man's Space Ranger SG)
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This "10%-effectiveness against armors" is the weakness that you get in exchange for the advantage of "200%-effectiveness against unarmored groups"
At 10%-effectiveness, I would take the risk for half of my frontwomen. At 0%, this is just too risky that I don't have enough weapons/ammo to complete the mission.
Also, consider how the AI is rudimentary, it doesn't choose a weapon, and doesn't care if your gals are armored or not. If the damage system includes such "chip damage", the enemy's mindless shooting becomes more serious, because every hit does something.
This was in response to the "risk" of armor damage making shotgun the be all end all weapon. We are under no such risk as far as gal armament is concerned and I do appreciate their value against unarmoured ennemies, hence my asking if we might see more of them to create more situations were shotguns are good (deep ones and some early factions are such).
Your point with the AI is true, and it would be a nice addition for them. Often a npc with shotgun is more dangerous after panicking and dropping it because then it is more likely to use explosives. Giving some teeth to shotguns pellets is good, provided they can scratch the heavier armor or tanks.
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provided they can scratch the heavier armor or tanks.
Shotguns. Against tanks. Really people, this is getting ridiculous.
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Shotguns. Against tanks. Really people, this is getting ridiculous.
Of course not, that would be ridonculous!
Everybody knows the best weapon against armored cars is (Thor's) hammer.
Btw. since the hammer is now useless anyway... would you like a feature that a weapon can destroy terrain, but cannot harm units (or does only a fractional, not full damage against units)?
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Btw. since the hammer is now useless anyway... would you like a feature that a weapon can destroy terrain, but cannot harm units (or does only a fractional, not full damage against units)?
It is doable with current OXCE commands. A weak weapon that has a large bonus damage vs. terrain. Pickaxe, for example, works that way. So does Plasma Scorcher but it's hardly harmless against units :)
Also it is quite interesting how a weapon got from godly to 'useless' by just by lowering its attack speed by mere 1/6 th :)
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Glad to hear it's already possible, Yankes is doing a really good job, but maybe more promotion would be in place so that other modders start considering the switch to OXCE.
Also it is quite interesting how a weapon got from godly to 'useless' by just by lowering its attack speed by mere 1/6 th :)
Oh yes, such small difference is enough when you classify weapons only with two grades (useful or useless) like me. It's either one or the other, nothing between. Maybe the wording is a bit confusing, I guess "worth it" and "not worth it" would be better.
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Promotion would be good, but I'm very bad at promoting/entertaining skills, it's more of a job for you (especially since your mod became pretty much an essential addition to OXCE) :)
"Not worth it" is something I understand. If the hammer is (borderline) not worth it as a melee weapon, then I'm happy with how it's balanced - it still has uses like breaking tough terrain or attacking up/down an elevator (or even against low-flying targets :) ).
Also yes, I will be working on introducing more enemies and missions where starting weapons would shine. Not sure what to do next - Ivan suggested moving 'Origins' to a later phase, so maybe it's time for adding more hi-end enemies that'll appear in the second year of the game.
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Yes, I think that shotguns simply require less enemies with armor. The probability of finding a security guard is too high.
With a low TU use shotgun and a black powder bomb, you should have a decent equipment.
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I just realized that shotguns are actually the best kind of main weapon for the front-line rookies who have to go indoors.
(When you don't have elite scouts in heavy armors, you use what you have)
They are safer by being able to kill quickly at this range, the experience is welcome, and in the unlucky case where they discover an armored enemy, the girl who becomes powerless had probably low strength, so her total damage potential was not very high in the first place.
Shotgun + dynamite : The "Blood" starter pack :)
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That's the idea here - there wasn't supposed to be any early weapon to cover every tactical situation. To get the best of available guns, you need to diversify them. A combination of weapons where each one 'sucks' can still be very effective. It is supremely boring when everyone simply packs the currently best gun. My goal was to create more roles for specialists and more ways of approaching various problems. I don't consider it a problem if a shotgun is ineffective versus some types of enemies. Like in a modern army, where you won't say an anti-aircraft system "sucks" just because it can't take on battle tanks, right?
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I 100% agree with that. UFO/xcom gameplay is all about coordinating the actions of multiple characters/equipments.
My original reservations with shotguns assumed that the entire team had a similar amount of experience. But there are fresh troops throughout the game, either to replace casualties or because you're expanding. These new troops don't have the strength to carry multiple weapons to be useful in many situations, so they will always have some kind of specialization. It's the kind of thing you take into account when organizing your assault (ie. assaulters are followed with people who carry alternative and stunning weapons)
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Indeed. I expect the ratio of wounded pirates to be very high, hence the constant need for extra hands.
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I 100% agree with that. UFO/xcom gameplay is all about coordinating the actions of multiple characters/equipments.
My original reservations with shotguns assumed that the entire team had a similar amount of experience. But there are fresh troops throughout the game, either to replace casualties or because you're expanding. These new troops don't have the strength to carry multiple weapons to be useful in many situations, so they will always have some kind of specialization. It's the kind of thing you take into account when organizing your assault (ie. assaulters are followed with people who carry alternative and stunning weapons)
Yeah, I'm often passing out a combat shottie for the auto fire to the rookie gals. And maybe with boosted stun, they will knock someone down instead of out. :)
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Shotguns are great disposable weapons for frontline rookies, but I prefer stick grenades since they're easy to aim, dropping due to panic doesn't seem to do much, and they have the potential to damage any enemy regardless of his armor, and doesn't weigh much.
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Shotguns. Against tanks. Really people, this is getting ridiculous.
Seriously? That sentence was an autocorrect mistake from my phone. It doesn't evendors make sense as is (adding teeth to the shot gun doesn't requirk the caveat of having to damage tanks since they both go in the same direction). I was saying its good to buff shotguns provided the mechanics work and it doesn't create other crazy situations like scratching tanks. You have low expectations of your players if you think this is what we request.
As for the hammer, I already suggested a way to make it destroy terrain and behave like a proper melee weapon too. I think that works well, even though it forces you to find other ways to clear elevators (yay tesla coils!).
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Seriously? That sentence was an autocorrect mistake from my phone. It doesn't evendors make sense as is (adding teeth to the shot gun doesn't requirk the caveat of having to damage tanks since they both go in the same direction). I was saying its good to buff shotguns provided the mechanics work and it doesn't create other crazy situations like scratching tanks. You have low expectations of your players if you think this is what we request.
As for the hammer, I already suggested a way to make it destroy terrain and behave like a proper melee weapon too. I think that works well, even though it forces you to find other ways to clear elevators (yay tesla coils!).
Haha I once used a shotgun against a tank it was FUN! half of the town was on fire afterwards. There was a bit of Cotton candy you see...Then clowns...
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Seriously? That sentence was an autocorrect mistake from my phone. It doesn't evendors make sense as is (adding teeth to the shot gun doesn't requirk the caveat of having to damage tanks since they both go in the same direction). I was saying its good to buff shotguns provided the mechanics work and it doesn't create other crazy situations like scratching tanks. You have low expectations of your players if you think this is what we request.
As for the hammer, I already suggested a way to make it destroy terrain and behave like a proper melee weapon too. I think that works well, even though it forces you to find other ways to clear elevators (yay tesla coils!).
Nothing personal, I just reply to what I see. What I saw was a request for armor damage on shotguns, which would make them pretty deadly against tanks in sustained fire. And yeah that's what some people did request, as some people will always want more buffs.
Your Hammer suggestion is all nice and dandy and I agree but the engine does not support such weapon behavior. It has to be a ranged weapon precisely because only a ranged weapon can attack terrain.
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Tanks invulnerable to a ill-equipped band of pirates may be realistic, but don't make the gameplay better. I'd rather be able to kill a "boss" enemy in 30 successful hits, than have to abort the mission (or worse, reload to point before I wasted a heavy explosive).
Shotguns wouldn't even be the best weapon to wear out armor, as it's suicidal to stay within firing range and if tank gets a reaction shot, you're now facing the front armor, the thoughest.
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I think only the turret rotates, actually, so you would still be facing rear armor. And tanks aren't that much of a problem as there is generally only a few and melee weapons to the rear armor can deal with them. It's rather suicidal unless applied with overwhelming numbers but I think that's fine. And if you don't want to pay the price, then I think the enemy should win. They also have the significant disadvantage of being 2x2 so you can easily hide in buildings (too bad the AI doesn't do suppressive/destructive shots when it can't reach a player unit).
Having shotguns as a tank counter by armor reduction is not necessary, nor realistic. With a threshold that it damages armor if no penetrating hit is made for armors under 50, maybe, but then what's the point? You have ways to deal with armor 50 units much more easily. What might be nice is a TU and (small) stun damage on pellets that is applied regardless of health damage, representing the impact of a short range shotgun blast destabilizing (deafening, startling and buffetting) the target.
Generally hard enemies like mercs are more of an issue if you are not prepared for them, as they are numerous and all share the toughness. But even they can still be worn down with enough effort. And you should have better than starting weapons when you encounter them any ways. Terror units should be difficult, they are the added challenge of the harder mission.
Re: hammer
We've already discussed the pros and cons and agreed on our respective takes. I was just mentioning it for meridian who was suggesting something similar. I certainly agree that having melee damage on terrain if no unit is present to target would be nice. But that also breaks it for elevators. Elevators are a a pain..
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I'd rather be able to kill a "boss" enemy in 30 successful hits, than have to abort the mission (or worse, reload to point before I wasted a heavy explosive).
What you're suggesting is basically that every mission in the game should be winnable no matter how ill-prepared you are. No, no, and no. And what was that point on wasting HE? Nothing is immune to HE packs, used in enough quantities.
Also I don't get the whole 'worse realism = better gameplay' take. I don't agree with that at all. This rather should be countered by how missions are constructed, not by allowing every weapon to be effective against everything.
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I generally equip all of my soldiers with an explosive and a rifle. I've yet to encounter a situation where I couldn't take something out. As long as its not 20 mercs haha.
Also during combat enemy soldiers have equipment as well. Even if you go in with 18 gals with holdout pistols. As long as your enemy has enough grenades you can take out their tanks. Unless you're fighting mercs of whom their weakest link is still tough.
Gameplay is enhanced by how underequipped units being unable to match powerful ones. It makes you prepare for the scenario in a more resourceful manner. And reminds you to use all the resources you have available.
Gauss weapons, and grenades are plentiful in the game so it shouldn't be a problem to begin with unless you intentionally decided to sell them all or not attack ships with lasers or gauss weapons. Or you're still on your first mission.
Lasers rifle+ and Gauss can penetrate merc and tank armor. Power armor is even easier to breech than Merc armor funny enough though it might just be the user being less durable in PA.
I remember a fight with some mercs where I had two Gauss rifles. At the end of the fight I had about 13. Though the use of stick grenades, looting, and Gauss fire I managed to down the mercs one by one to take their rifles. If anything this should be a lesson to keep at least one or two good weapons to breech armor around on the Bonaventura. And to equip all units with grenades.
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Looting enemies is the good practice, but you can't rely on it 100% because their stuff may be too high-tech to use yet.
What you're suggesting is basically that every mission in the game should be winnable no matter how ill-prepared you are.
I doubt it would have this effect. You may bring an unlimited amount of low-caliber bullets in the Bonny, but it will take an absurdly high amount of successful hits to kill a tank.
I computed the following stats for head-on shots to a tank, assuming 100% vulnerability, default HP and armors get chipped up to 1/3 of their normal value.
Your weapon power 75: 14hits (same as today)
Your weapon power 65: 20hits (same as today)
Your weapon power 60: 24 hits (instead of 25)
Your weapon power 55: 30 hits <- heavy machine gun
Your weapon power 45: 45 hits
Your weapon power 35 : 63 hits <- assault rifle/PS
Your weapon power 25 : 93 hits
Your weapon power 22 : 124 hits <- buckshot, old pistol
I won't bear people with many scenarii, but for example to kill a Provost with AK47 only, you'd still need to hit him 42 times in the back.
And what was that point on wasting HE?
Oh, I just now understood your answer : I meant wasting your last HE pack earlier on enemies which could be handled differently, and you regret it later when you find a though guy.
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Or you can simply use proper weapons for the job, geeze. This is getting awfully stupid and there is little point in continuing this discussion. Low-powered projectiles simply disintegrate when they hit heavy armor, leaving no damage, unless there is a stream of projectiles hitting the same spot.
Also if you present any calculations, it's prudent to also tell the formulas they're based on.
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Once again:
I'm sorry if it's a stupid idea, I don't even know the full range of armors and damage of Piratez, so I can't be sure if it would make sense.
In case this was a question, the statistical average damage per hit for UFO1 (0-200% range) can be counted this way:
if power*2 > armor
hp loss = (power*2 - armor)/(power*2)
end
I simply made cumulative total, reducing armor on every step until it reaches the minimum 1/3.
Proper tools for the job? Geez, I wish I knew what was the job in advance.
edit: Sorry for the sarcasm, I had missed your meaning. Of course player should plan for trouble, but there's no way to know the upper limit of what you'll be facing. Can there be 2 armored cars ? 4 ? 10 ?
I made these computations to measure what would happen if somebody did something "stupid". I think the numbers are high enough to show it's "a bad idea", especially considering the decreasing morale and the turn 20 rule.