Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N8 28-Apr-2024 Labyrinthus Noctis  (Read 3716222 times)

Offline Martin

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 438
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4335 on: April 03, 2017, 10:38:27 am »
Access to the Eurosyndicate weapons is the real prize. Risk and negative score is the price to pay. That deal isn't fair, yes, because Eurosyndicate isn't fair.

They are still quite expensive for what they do.

Offline LexThorn

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4336 on: April 03, 2017, 03:40:58 pm »
They are still quite expensive for what they do.

Yeah. Maybe, it`s time to lower the price a bit.

Offline Dioxine

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 5434
  • punk not dead
    • View Profile
    • Nocturnal Productions
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4337 on: April 03, 2017, 05:29:52 pm »
Really, not a big price for nullifying 2/3 of weapon research tree.

Offline Martin

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 438
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4338 on: April 03, 2017, 09:17:45 pm »
Really, not a big price for nullifying 2/3 of weapon research tree.

Really? I mean, Eurosyndicate offers decent upgrade from basic laser stuff, but no explosives and certainly no undersea stuff which might become an issue in later updates when missions with aquatoids and presumably vorse stuff are added.

The appeal of ES would be much higher for me if they offered early access to hellerium based explosives.

Offline legionof1

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Bullets go that way. Money comes this way.
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4339 on: April 03, 2017, 09:54:00 pm »
Lasers are necessary due to enemy mix, namely mercs and space. However aside from those situations they are a little weak. Plasma and gauss beat them in raw damage and are therefore more effective in anti-armor use due to the nature of damage calculation. Even a surprising fraction of normal guns do better then most lasers for the same reason. The gap narrowed even more with addition of 10% armor pen for rifles(25% for some guns advanced ammo) and 20% for some snipers type guns. Against the really well armored foes lasers will often fail to do anything, where as high end piercing and plasma will at least always degrade armor.

The other hallmark of lasers is relative low weight but i have rarely found that to be significant problem between various carry weight/STR buffing armors and the newish levitation pack. Trading away the extra utility of either gunbutt attacks or superior damage to save some weight is a bad deal in my mind. Topping out gal strength is probably the easiest stat to max outside of mechanics abuse for bravery.

Lasers are needed and functional but only just. Putting this type of price tag on the strongest of them only weakens the type. Granted having the strongest laser available very early needs an offset, but high operating expense AND long term negative score penalty when score is significant perhaps vital income? i'll do without the thing i never used before and be even better off for the choice then previously.



Offline Devon_v

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.4 - 18 Mar - Furious Fixes
« Reply #4340 on: April 03, 2017, 11:51:27 pm »
1 wound is technically speaking the outlier for any instance of receiving a wound. Any instance of being wounded is evenly split between 1,2 or 3 wounds. Below 11 damage your chance to take a wound is reduced but the split remains. See link for further information. https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Fatal_Wounds

I'm talking about multuple missions. Not "oh, the RNG hated me on this mission, I kept roling 3", but "every mission I do, the RNG rolls 3 more than any other value". Crazy stuff like getting auto-fired and being left with NINE fatal wounds. The rolls are supposed to be 33/33/33, but I'm seeing 10/10/80. Not impossible naturally, but there's only so far improbability goes before I begin suspecting an error.

Offline legionof1

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Bullets go that way. Money comes this way.
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4341 on: April 04, 2017, 12:23:30 am »
Something being borked is a possibility, though in the case autofire you are pointing out a reasonable outcome. Instances of damage and wounds from are per projectile not per attack action. I think the most from a single attack i've witnessed was 18 from a tome of lighting attack. Tome of lighting has 9 projectiles if memory serves so average of 2 wounds in that case.

Offline lenin-kerrigan

  • Squaddie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4342 on: April 04, 2017, 07:18:04 pm »

Offline RSSwizard

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 760
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4343 on: April 04, 2017, 09:39:09 pm »
Really, not a big price for nullifying 2/3 of weapon research tree.

Ahh but they dont. Ive got ES Lasers sitting in my base stocks gathering dust. The ammo costs too much for them. As far as lasers they do decent damage but if I need to do alot of damage ill just blow something up or set it on fire. Ive got alot of Baby Nukes piling up.

I keep them around just in case of a base attack but thats all, they're pretty to look at but otherwise they're expensive paperweights. Im thinking of taking the ES Pistol to the mansion but because its only got 10 shots thats a problem, id rather toss a self charging laspistol at my Combat Syn.

-----
Edit: Attachment related, I havent even bought ES Lasers, this is just the one the Govt General had. And I havent used it yet.
-----

In terms of game balance you've got to consider Overall effectiveness not just what kind of abilities they have. It might be nice to manufacture high powered lasrifle clips like you find in missions, but thats only a useful benny back when lasrifles are worth it. Smart Rifle kills the lasrifle hands down, as soon as I got that I was disassembling all the lasrifles I could find.

The -1/3 armor bonus doesnt justify using lasers either, I need DAMAGE not penetration. If I need one-hit damage ill go with the Rail Driver (140) or all those Reticulan Plasma Guns (85) that ive got sitting around piling up. Why bother with an armor divider when I can just hit with regular damage at the equivalent volume?

Unless Heavy Lasers do as much damage as Rail Drivers they're useless, they get disassembled for craft weapon/tank parts. Ammo count or accuracy for the rail driver is irrelevant, if I get within 8 tiles someone's going to get railed (and if its essential they go down ill savescum). Sometimes I use other hands to carry bulky ammo for guns someone else has got.

The Boom Gun is a Booming Business, everybody wants a shotgun that can blow somebody to pieces and even moreso the half pound shotgun shells it uses. The ammunition sells for a fortune and ive got plastasteel flowing out my ears so bad I cant make enough of the ammo to sell before ive got to sell off plastasteel.

(I dont know of much else that requires straight plastasteel and not other components or manufactures quicker. And you get the Boom Gun from engaging just a single enemy base. Ive calculated that its roughly worth 96 bucks/man hour to make Boom Gun Ammo and thats even considering the sell value of the plastasteel)

Boom Gun does 50 damage straight up and it does it (5?) times at the close-ish ranges I use it at. One of those rolls is going to be high, its going to get through armor. Like literally itll kill ghouls in one shot halfway down the street. Attack just one enemy base and you've got Boom Guns. It chews up Zombies. Its got 10 shots per magazine and ill have just as many more magazines sitting in the item pile on my ship in case I need to ferry more ammo.

I STILL cant use gauss for some reason. But Boom Guns + Rail Drivers makes that irrelevant anyway. The technology lockout against using these absurdly heavy TFTD clones is too unbalanced considering that ive been using Gauss Cannons on my ships since probably mid-2nd year. I ought to be able to make small arms facsimiles that use the same clips. Given that I can patch together Rail Drivers id think I could make a smaller version that used Gauss Ammo thats piling up.

But honestly on my end I dont consider the ES missions to be all that bad even though it gives a ton of negative PR. That Govt General has a power armor suit I can peel off of him and eventually make a Juggernaut out of it. I also got a Smasher, though I still dont know what it does other than seeing its a laser pistol of some kind.

As long as im batting at least 1500 on infamy every month I dont really care. I know the income ratings go up to like 44000 or something but the highest score ive got so far was like 8000. As long as my infamy isnt in the red im okay.

Ive got a bunch of power stations giving me income since its been more than 10 months since I got them. Thats what the other attachment is about - ive got one base with nine of these things and ive got 9 more of them in my other bases. If I ever really need to expand to an 8th base (its plausible) and I need to gut some of my power stations for real estate they Sell Back for 1,000,000 each. I cant make Fusion Plants yet but I dont think (?) those have negative maintenance.

Im not saying this is unbalanced, its just another way of playing the game. Ive got 1 Base with a Hyperwave Decoder and thats it. I dont intercept too many shipping (read, many more than game start) and I still like to wait for them to land - and many of them just vanish into thin air. So this makes up for lower protection money.

I can build Battle Tanks now, I know those require nothing more than plastasteel but I havent actually built any because of the hangar requirement (that these beasts dont just count as an unusable Treasure and take up 30 storage like the menacing hull). I dont even know how much they sell for.

Ive got ONE base set up for manufacturing ships and its got a ship in the hangar right now. Id have to sell off my Dr. X Airvan to even bother making another ship, like a functional ship I care about using.

Im setting up a new manufacturing base now that ive got access to Factory but its probably like 2 months out before itll even get up and running (thats the 4th one on the base lineup). And its only going to have 1 Hangar too.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 10:05:29 pm by RSSwizard »

Offline Scorrpio

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4344 on: April 04, 2017, 11:53:06 pm »
That power station arrangement yields a measly 1.35 mil/month and it cost 13.5 mil to build so you get no return for 10 months.  Putting down  large barracks x2, large vault and a factory (about 19 mil) and setting 200 runts to build and sell regular tanks is gonna pump 28mil/month to your coffers after runt salaries and facility maintenance.

About weapons...  agreed that ES stuff is about useless.   But you do want to invest in heavy hitters in other than piercing or concussive since many nastier units are about immune.  You can be pumping that boom gun at a sectopod for 10 turns straight and not make a dent. (0.1 to piercing, 140 armor) but a couple well placed FAE grenades will melt it.   Or send in a high-melee/reaction gal with a force blade.

Offline RSSwizard

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 760
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4345 on: April 05, 2017, 01:19:29 am »
That power station arrangement yields a measly 1.35 mil/month and it cost 13.5 mil to build so you get no return for 10 months.
...
You can be pumping that boom gun at a sectopod for 10 turns straight and not make a dent. (0.1 to piercing, 140 armor)

The power station arrangement got me through the entire 2nd year without having to worry about starting to go broke because of monthly crap and mission ratings (which meant I didnt have to spend 1-2 months doing nothing but making money with runts, compared to them actually producing cool stuff). When the time is right ill scrap most of them and probably get 15 million back.

Im at the point where im off the hook for doing Pogroms now so if its a hard mission I just reload out of it and I dont go to it.

Im well aware of the sectopod and for now my answer is Fire. In fact my answer to alot of nasty things is Fire. For something like that ill probably use an actual Flamethrower because it hits multiple times. Normally I use the Arena Fireball Launcher because its got infinite ammo, that clears a spartan mission in just a few rounds.

BaH! I havent even Bothered with the grenade launcher, like at all. I dont even have it in my inventory. I figured it was pretty much useless and focused on Rockets.

Not sure if Diox changed the sectopod stats from vanilla but a laser shot to the eye is supposed to be instantly lethal.

Re: Star Gods and Mercinaries
I dont fight them pure and simple. When I get Flechette Cannons (or Flechette Guns) ill start going after the Mercinaries because it seems like they've got some funny resistances compared to regular mutons and I need to be able to 1 or 2 shot them.

Offline RSSwizard

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 760
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4346 on: April 05, 2017, 01:44:38 am »
I think I will add another, more powerful ES weapon to sweeten the deal, tho.

If I may suggest a EuroSyndicate Gatling Laser. With all the higher powered options with low magazine capacity those guys would need to balance it out with something that both penetrates and has lots of shots. And id also add the ES weapons are pretty balanced for coming earlier in the tech tree because they're dang expensive, an ES gatling laser id spend 750K on but I suggest it costs at least 1.25mil.

Also I just noticed that I cant sell my Soldier Syn. It would be cool if I could flood the market with robot women. That could be differentiated by adding an extra manufacture option for it like "Syn-ful Pleasure Model" (such that Soldier Syns have a personality and cant be sold, since the game mechanics wont allow selling soldiers for cash)

I also noticed this and im not sure if its an oversight, but the Damaged Syns I was capturing from the orbital missions dont have any purpose beyond initial research and selling them for loot.

Making a new Soldier Syn only costs like 50/medical + 3/plasteel... I would've thought they would take a damaged one and fix her up again and I was prepared for living with a limited number of them (ive only collected maybe 4-5 damaged syns so far, they got sold after the research was done).

I know they've got supernerf inventory capacity but Syns are practically 1x1 Tanks that I might almost not even care about losing since I can throw Chem Extraction to whip up the medical.

Offline Crazy

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4347 on: April 05, 2017, 06:01:12 am »
If I may suggest a EuroSyndicate Gatling Laser. With all the higher powered options with low magazine capacity those guys would need to balance it out with something that both penetrates and has lots of shots. And id also add the ES weapons are pretty balanced for coming earlier in the tech tree because they're dang expensive, an ES gatling laser id spend 750K on but I suggest it costs at least 1.25mil.

Also I just noticed that I cant sell my Soldier Syn. It would be cool if I could flood the market with robot women. That could be differentiated by adding an extra manufacture option for it like "Syn-ful Pleasure Model" (such that Soldier Syns have a personality and cant be sold, since the game mechanics wont allow selling soldiers for cash)

I also noticed this and im not sure if its an oversight, but the Damaged Syns I was capturing from the orbital missions dont have any purpose beyond initial research and selling them for loot.

Making a new Soldier Syn only costs like 50/medical + 3/plasteel... I would've thought they would take a damaged one and fix her up again and I was prepared for living with a limited number of them (ive only collected maybe 4-5 damaged syns so far, they got sold after the research was done).

I know they've got supernerf inventory capacity but Syns are practically 1x1 Tanks that I might almost not even care about losing since I can throw Chem Extraction to whip up the medical.
Unless the Eurosyndicate has some sort of Sectopod killer weapon locked behind it, I doubt that I would ever realistically take the deal. Not even a 70 damage version of the Fatty is worth it IMO for that kind of price to power ratio.

Offline legionof1

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Bullets go that way. Money comes this way.
    • View Profile
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4348 on: April 05, 2017, 07:19:00 am »
snip
Re: Star Gods and Mercinaries
I dont fight them pure and simple. When I get Flechette Cannons (or Flechette Guns) ill start going after the Mercinaries because it seems like they've got some funny resistances compared to regular mutons and I need to be able to 1 or 2 shot them.

Mercs have a large hp pool and 40% or higher pierce resist depending on type with 30-40ish armor. Only laser and plasma do full damage. It is one of the few times lasers are useful. Despite the high armor pen flechettes lack the punch needed due to resist before armor in damage calculation.

Offline Dioxine

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 5434
  • punk not dead
    • View Profile
    • Nocturnal Productions
Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99F.5 - 1 Apr - Fight Magic with Courage!
« Reply #4349 on: April 05, 2017, 02:00:32 pm »
Making a new Soldier Syn only costs like 50/medical + 3/plasteel... I would've thought they would take a damaged one and fix her up again and I was prepared for living with a limited number of them (ive only collected maybe 4-5 damaged syns so far, they got sold after the research was done).

Woops, indeed, that was the intention. It's a bug, manufacture should require a damaged one.