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Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N8 28-Apr-2024 Labyrinthus Noctis  (Read 3715340 times)

Offline Yankes

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1440 on: November 23, 2015, 12:13:56 am »
I'm not a technical guy...but yes these may bring both stun and concussive damage, the % percentage accuracy ma by greater than a sword (maces are rathcer "big" in comparison ta a sword) but of poor usage agains heavy armored enemies, fair against average ones, pretty effective against unarmored. Maybe some strenght may be required for optimal usage (bonus)
Quit opposite, sword are poor against armor. Maces and warhammers was added as can openers. Spikes on it was great tool to focus all impact in one spot that can easy pierce armor and under layers (nobody used armor on bare skin). Even plain mace is effective against armor because you can store a lot of energy in one swing that if even don't bend armor, it will still affect enemy (image this like boxing fight, even with glows you can KO enemy).

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1441 on: November 23, 2015, 03:47:02 am »
Indeed, would be cool to see some similar mechanic, with maces ignoring a bit or armor to represent how they work (and do a bit of stun too), swords as the best "average" and axes for raw damage.

Although.. So far it seems like the only weapon-type to get upgraded are swords. Went from cutlass to longsword to techblade to electro-sword, but no mace/axe/hammer upgrade..

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1442 on: November 23, 2015, 05:17:35 am »
Does the hammer need an upgrade? (rhetorical question).

But yeah, specialized can-openers can be nice for melee weapons... but they might be simply too powerful in the first place, why need a can-opener when your starting melee weapons cut through armor quite nicely already... I need to rethink this whole thing.

niculinux

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1443 on: November 23, 2015, 01:52:47 pm »
Does the hammer need an upgrade? (rhetorical question).

But yeah, specialized can-openers can be nice for melee weapons... but they might be simply too powerful in the first place, why need a can-opener when your starting melee weapons cut through armor quite nicely already... I need to rethink this whole thing.

Well, there is a distinction to be made between variuos can openers types..like the (two handed, keep in mind) hammer is very powerful, maces, could be really efffective against unarmored/ poorly armored enemies, but users may gea a small strenght bonus (+5). Same for spiked maces, which sould get some more damage power (+5)

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1444 on: November 23, 2015, 04:34:01 pm »
maces, could be really efffective against unarmored/ poorly armored enemies
Dude! Maces are good against armor, not the opposite! :P

@Dioxine: I think the hammer could get something new, yes. I'd even go so far as to say it should. Not because it is not powerful enough (lol) but because I just feel it's wrong for it to still shine even against hi-tech weapons. It's still just a demolition hammer!

My suggestion for the hammer: Thunder hammer :D To go with the electro-sword.
Similar damage, I'd say lower starting power, better melee to power scaling meaning better damage for high melee gals (it's more tricky to land a telling blow and time it with the power/electro-field burst).

As a side effect, it drains the target's TUs on top of better stun damage (concussive+electro field = good stun). The "TU drain" makes enemies less likely to react back at you. One of the main disadvantage of the hammer compared to melee is that since it is a "gun", it causes reaction fire, whereas real melee weapons don't. By having the thunder hammer drain TUs, you improve on the hammer by helping survivability of the user. (I don't use hammer against strong foes with strong guns, because many times they get my gal if the first hit isn't enough to kill).

Even better if you can tweak the explosion radius + falloff (I think you can in Extended?) so that it does max ~60 damage (ie average power = 40, actual = 20 to 60) 1 tile away from the point of impact. (I will work on a "electro-splosion" recolored animation if you do that). Doesn't add much except cool destruction in certain terrain, and maybe the ability to kill unarmored enemies, but it would make it stand out. It would also restrict its use to armors with better than 60 under armor (= juggernaut), otherwise you damage yourself and drain your own TUs.

As for adding a "can opener" mace to the game, I think it could work. I'd say:
- Need primitive weapons ("invented" along the spear as the total opposite weapon)
- Takes a pipe and scrap metal to make a mace.
- Lower or similar power to a cutlass ( depends more on Str, less on Melee, which also means it will cap lower since Str cap is lower than Melee cap, but Str is easier to train), but concussive type
- Lower accuracy: With an added dependency on Str (stronger = better control of a heavier weapon)
- Higher TU/Stam cost (they are cumbersome weapons)
- Ignores.. say 25% of armor?

By no means a no-brainer upgrade, but good to have if you expect to face dudes in medium (personal) armor. Doesn't really work on power armor, but better than a cutlass. Not all enemies have high enough armor and it's not outright superior to warrant entirely replacing swords, but it's annoying enough to have your cutlasses bounce and get shot point blank. So it'd be good to have the extra little hitting power for insurance by bringing 1-2 mace gals in the boarding party. I'd expect the sword gals to kill more (they get less tired so get to strike more, also they hit more), but upon seeing a PA-dude, would likely send the maces to kill, so they'd get more armored dudes.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1445 on: November 23, 2015, 06:01:04 pm »
The mace discussion is very interesting.  I really like Arthanor's proposal for balance and tactical utility. :)   
Also, I think the idea of the Electro Hammer is pretty darn cool. :) Maybe Thor's Hammer template?

Offline xaphias

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1446 on: November 23, 2015, 06:02:02 pm »
I was running .95C and game stops in a terror mission, I believe it's a heavy armor trader body guard, that doesn't know what to do, chased him into a corner, and now enemy turn doesn't end, it just says hidden movement. I saw that he was just standing in one spot and turning 45 degrees back and forth... upgraded to .96 same thing. anyway to salvage that save? it's on ironman mode :/
will include the save if anyone wants to take a crack at it, I should have just crashed the client and resumed from an autosave 3-5 turns back.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1447 on: November 23, 2015, 06:10:39 pm »
No crash/hang detected here. 2 enemies left, one is dropping unconscious at the start of their turn. Try debug mode, or, if it fails, add fatal wounds (in the save) to the enemies to kill them instantly. Might be a Nightly problem, but that will be adressed in the next version.
Also, I don't reccomend Ironman before 1.0. Self-impose it, but save before each mission at least (there is a crash-prone building in the Dawn City map, for example).

EDIT:
@Arthanor: yeah Thunder Hammer was planned from long ago, very similar to what you describe, just I need Terminator Armors first :) Also, while maces are a good idea (and I'd implement they basically almost exactly as you suggest), I routinely kill Power Armor with axes... So is there even need? Same with the hammer, it remains good enough even in the end-game... Maybe I should add 'increases target armor' to all bladed weapons, like swords, machetes? Axes would stay at 'armor unchanged'. Or make a general melee power nerfing, but I abhor doing such sweeping changes, better to fine-tune...
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 06:26:36 pm by Dioxine »

Offline xaphias

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1448 on: November 23, 2015, 06:36:11 pm »
Ah thanx you, I managed to get past it with debug mode! :)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1449 on: November 23, 2015, 08:49:54 pm »
You know what would be cool? Shrapnel mortar missile.

Imagine something not quite as powerful as the normal ammo, but with absurdly huge radius, like twice as big. Damage type: as crate of violence.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1450 on: November 23, 2015, 10:10:20 pm »
With the caveat that it does little damage to terrain and armor? Could be cool :)

niculinux

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1451 on: November 23, 2015, 11:04:50 pm »
Dude! Maces are good against armor, not the opposite! :P

[...]
By no means a no-brainer upgrade, but good to have if you expect to face dudes in medium (personal) armor. Doesn't really work on power armor, but better than a cutlass. Not all enemies have high enough armor and it's not outright superior to warrant entirely replacing swords, but it's annoying enough to have your cutlasses bounce and get shot point blank. So it'd be good to have the extra little hitting power for insurance by bringing 1-2 mace gals in the boarding party. I'd expect the sword gals to kill more (they get less tired so get to strike more, also they hit more), but upon seeing a PA-dude, would likely send the maces to kill, so they'd get more armored dudes.

Not always true actually, because the more thougher is an armore, the less a mace would be useful...still may be littele effective against medium ones, spiked or not...hell a power armor damege by a mace...i don't think...for the rest i agree...mace may be an upgrade of a club with nails, that may be also a potentil startin addiction to the arsenal!

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1452 on: November 24, 2015, 02:35:50 am »
Is this based on some experience? (Sorry Dioxine for the weapons debate derail, feel free to move a bunch of post to a "we want maces!" type thread). My experience comes from fencing, where the clothes are "hard" enough to not break when hit. But the heavier the sword (foil to épée -> more impact) the more it hurts even though no material was broken, because it has more impact. And you can try a heavy medieval re-enactment foam sword, that hurts too!
Spoiler:
From what I have read, the tougher the material the armor is made from, the less useful swords and edged weapons become because the blade can't "bite" into it, so you just get glancing blows. But since a sword is not very heavy, that's not much of a blow.

By opposition, it doesn't matter how hard you are, a large impact (being hit by something heavy) will cause some trauma and possibly concuss you as well. That's why car airbags are important and why cars deform when hitting something: They reduce the impact. You could build a super hard car, but the human body would not be able to survive the impact without a cushion.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 03:54:17 pm by Arthanor »

Offline DracoGriffin

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1453 on: November 24, 2015, 04:05:33 am »
Dioxine,

Quick question: how did you manage the color effect on the background images (Back_04.gif, Back_05.gif, Back_06.gif, etc) ?

Trying to replicate it and it's not looking the same at all.

niculinux

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.96 - 20 Nov - News of the World
« Reply #1454 on: November 24, 2015, 09:57:33 am »
Is this based on some experience? (Sorry Dioxine for the weapons debate derail, feel free to move a bunch of post to a "we want maces!" type thread). My experience comes from fencing, where the close are "hard" enough to not break when hit. But the heavier the sword (foil to épée -> more impact) the more it hurts even though no material was broken, because it has more impact. And you can try a heavy medieval re-enactment foam sword, that hurts too!
[...]

Actually not experience involved..I just figured out in the year 2601 a power armor may be simply to tough to even damage... :'( Just my ideas ^-?