Brutal-OXCE 8.4.1

[Xilmi]

They get like 1 or 2 attacks then they just move away 1 or 2 tiles to be killed next turn, if they survived.

Here is an example that just happened a few turns later. My unity was on the cursor facing away, and the enemies just walked up to it and start shooting or punching. They did no damage and you can see the result.

If this is the case, then your units obviously outclass them by an order of magnitude.

If they do attack but your unit takes no damage, then there obviously is nothing they could have done better except of delaying the inevitable by avoiding your units and not even trying to attack.

I made it so that when they don't do damage they will still attack. It might make them look stupid but it will prevent wasting your time.

[donk]

Well, I'm not that much better. Still using human weapons, and synthsuits are not that great with armor. It's just with melee synthsuits boosts a lot, so that might throw off the AI a bit? Cause all this happened with melee, no shooting.

[Abyss]

Cause all this happened with melee, no shooting.

Melee tactics are all being discussed, so if you have a suggestion of optimal behavior in this particular case - it's most welcome. Right now no other than hide and ambush was proposed. 
Personally, I think one single optimal model for BAI tactics is not good, so boosting melee strategy in one condition (closequarters) will lead to decrease of melee efficiency in different (open field).
BTW which version of BAI did you use?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

One more thing I noticed playing campaign. It is near impossible to acquire live specimen as they all carry preprimed grenades. Kamikazes.
Looks like the only way to do it is to jump on somebody with few soldiers with stun rods and pick the primed grenade once the body falls. Didn't try it yet but it seems to be quite difficult.
Long range stunning becomes quite useless for this purpose.


You said you are playing campaign with this mod too. How do you capture them?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Also when you guys play quick combat, which race do you play against? I found that even slight variation in alien toughness has very significant effect on the combat. Six soldiers have enough firepower to fend off six Gillmen but six Lobstermen will just cut through them as hot knife through butter just because they cannot be killed in one turn.

It seems to require quite fine tuning in alien stats to make campaign playable.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Is unit intelligence used anywhere in current default settings?

[Abyss]

Hi Xilmi!
I downloaded the new release and gaze into new aggressiveness settings.
Have no single idea what to set as EA numerator and denominators.
Tried to read it carefully, but my end-of-the-year-final-reports-fucked-up brain cannot comprehend what these variables do.
Can you explain this on fingers?

The aggression-mode-setting now has only the option to multiply unit-aggression with the baseline-aggressiveness instead of replacing it. This way the baseline-aggressiveness can be adjusted to the aggression-values used within the mod to produce the desired results. For example if 2 is supposed to be the avarage balanced behavior the baseline-aggressiveness should be set to 1 over 2.

UPD.

So I set
Aggressiveness mode = 2 (to use Leeroys flags)
Numenator = 1
Denominator = 2
And some units go more aggressive, while others are more cautious?

In XCF only zombies, cybermites and pinky demons (doom fractions) have Leeroy flags.
And, I guess, Leeroy flags there means they just push straightforward no matter what.
And, You have the Brutal brutes option, which if set NO, sets all inventoryless creatures to vanilla behavior.
Does that mean setting Aggressiveness mode = 2 (to use Leeroys flags) in XCF is pointless, as it directly interferes the NO to brutal brutes? Or I am getting something wrong?

What is aggression in vanilla OXCE? Isn't it some sort of modificator which shows how often unit will decide to attack, given an opportunity? Vanilla 0-10 gradation represents chances for when unit will decide to move somewhere instead of performing an attack?

Minotaur with flamethrower has ruleset aggression =5 , is not brute. Thus with abovementioned settings, it will be more pushy other then defensive, but still sometimes take cover, right?
Cybermite is Leroy, but has aggressiveness = 2, thus supposed to be more careful, but still doesn't take cover. I can't comprehend it.

Also when you guys play quick combat, which race do you play against? I found that even slight variation in alien toughness has very significant effect on the combat. Six soldiers have enough firepower to fend off six Gillmen but six Lobstermen will just cut through them as hot knife through butter just because they cannot be killed in one turn.

Keep exploring the depths of OXCE mechanics! My advise is pretty the same - go play either XCF or XPZ and get used to what ppl did across last 10 years, how they workout the balance and introduce different instruments to deal with specific enemies.
Like, in megamods lobsterman are very susceptible to toxic gas weapons and grenades, because LORe says they have... gills? Ingenious, right? One grenade can instantly kill or down 20 lobstermans. 

[donk]

Melee tactics are all being discussed, so if you have a suggestion of optimal behavior in this particular case - it's most welcome. Right now no other than hide and ambush was proposed. 
Personally, I think one single optimal model for BAI tactics is not good, so boosting melee strategy in one condition (closequarters) will lead to decrease of melee efficiency in different (open field).
BTW which version of BAI did you use?

I'm not sure I'm that experienced with XCom to give ideas on how it should work, but there are a few things I want to mention. I always try to use the latest version. My settings are in a post above.


I had a monster mission fighting Chryssalids and it was really dumb. Chryssalids can easily kill my units in 1 hit, but what do they do? They where absolutely terrified of my units for some reason and during the entire battle, 25 something turns, and they did not come close once during this (I use synthsuits with black ops weapons). All they did was walk back and forth trying to keep distance, sometimes taking cover. All they attacked where the civilians and once they they where turned to zombies they really didn't know what to do. Even the zombies behaved like this while in zombie missions they just try to swarm you.
Compare this to my previous post about ranged units forming lines to melee me and this becomes something that's not quite right.

I think that units, no matter how unmatched they are, should fight with their ranged weapons, unless they are melee units, and only consider melee if they think they can survive the next turn (hit and run) or can't run away.

But I don't want to enable BAI for brutes either. Having monsters hide behind obstacles indefinitely and then rush out and unleash 500 hits when you take one wrong step is no fun either. It's especially bad when you face monsters so tough you can't deal with them at the start of the game, that they just rush you and kill you.
But I also kinda want brutes to have some BAI features, cause right now they just walk around in circles and don't know what to do. If you have a flying unit you can just herd them and that feels off with such powerful units as Chryssalids.


An other problem with inconsistency I have is with Chasers. From the first turn they just rush you with no regards to survival. And if one of them has the mighty egg launcher it's really bad. Add to this the absurd amounts of units in XCF. I'm not sure how to deal with this other the just blindly run out from the spawn and try to hide, or if possible try to spread bombs, but running around with pre primed bombs is bad. But if you can survive 2 or 3 turns, then they tend to become really cowardly.
In one ship mission only a few spawned outside the ship and got killed. The rest inside the ship, 10+, just decided to cover in fear or something, and camp the door. Not very Chaser like behavior and they got a rocket for it.

On the other hand, this behavior works very well for Hybrid bases. The assaults come rushing forth while the rest do a more careful approach. It feels really nice and the only problem again is the huge amount of units at the start.


One more thing to mention is the option to tweak aggressiveness. I don't like this, just have an option for setting aggressiveness mode and then just do the tweaking under the hood from testing.

One more thing I noticed playing campaign. It is near impossible to acquire live specimen as they all carry preprimed grenades. Kamikazes.
Looks like the only way to do it is to jump on somebody with few soldiers with stun rods and pick the primed grenade once the body falls. Didn't try it yet but it seems to be quite difficult.
Long range stunning becomes quite useless for this purpose.


You said you are playing campaign with this mod too. How do you capture them?

I had this problem too and if they had a key item it was really bad so I turned it off. I used dogs to pick up bombs but a big problem is also that you can't tell if it's a mine or a bomb.
I think they should be able to pre prime but then use it the next turn or un prime it, or something like that. That might be a bit convoluted though.

[Abyss]

I think that units, no matter how unmatched they are, should fight with their ranged weapons, unless they are melee units, and only consider melee if they think they can survive the next turn (hit and run) or can't run away.

But I don't want to enable BAI for brutes either. Having monsters hide behind obstacles indefinitely and then rush out and unleash 500 hits when you take one wrong step is no fun either. It's especially bad when you face monsters so tough you can't deal with them at the start of the game, that they just rush you and kill you.
But I also kinda want brutes to have some BAI features, cause right now they just walk around in circles and don't know what to do. If you have a flying unit you can just herd them and that feels off with such powerful units as Chryssalids.


An other problem with inconsistency I have is with Chasers. From the first turn they just rush you with no regards to survival. And if one of them has the mighty egg launcher it's really bad. Add to this the absurd amounts of units in XCF. I'm not sure how to deal with this other the just blindly run out from the spawn and try to hide, or if possible try to spread bombs, but running around with pre primed bombs is bad. But if you can survive 2 or 3 turns, then they tend to become really cowardly.
In one ship mission only a few spawned outside the ship and got killed. The rest inside the ship, 10+, just decided to cover in fear or something, and camp the door. Not very Chaser like behavior and they got a rocket for it.

On the other hand, this behavior works very well for Hybrid bases. The assaults come rushing forth while the rest do a more careful approach. It feels really nice and the only problem again is the huge amount of units at the start.

For Cryssalids there should be something new, but zombies worked as intended in my previous playthrough under BAI 7.12.1, mean they roar and attack just like it was in vanilla (thx for Xilmi to arrange them).
Cryssalids are supposed to me more sentient, but they still a smart biological-terrorism weapon, thus they should attack. Hide and attack. Or rush and attack.
I guess we should look into their RUL profile.
There are few chryssalids, lol.

The one we probably look at is:
 - type: STR_CHRYSSALID_TERRORIST
    race: STR_CHRYSSALID
    rank: STR_LIVE_TERRORIST
    stats:
      tu: 110
      stamina: 140
      health: 96
      bravery: 100
      reactions: 70
      firing: 0
      throwing: 0
      strength: 110
      psiStrength: 50
      psiSkill: 0
      melee: 80
    armor: STR_CHRYSSALID_ARMOR
    standHeight: 21
    kneelHeight: 16
    value: 40
    deathSound: 9
    intelligence: 4
    aggression: 2
    energyRecovery: 40
    livingWeapon: true
    builtInWeaponSets:
      - - STR_CHRYSSALID_WEAPON

Livingweapon: true is same for a number of creatures, most of which are wild creatures, like megascorpions and even zombies. I'm not sure, but isn't this flag enabled makes possibility of brutal brutes on/off switch?

Chryssalid itself shouldn't be running back and forth, but rather do it's stuff around, like running from building to building, looking for a target. It also has good intelligence, meaning it can hide. And aggression is quite low, meaning on average it waits, rather than approaches itself from other side of the map.

My advise here will be switching to Aggressiveness mode = 2, and further options 1/2.
I would also somehow separate chryssalids from low-int creatures to make them really fear-bringing heartstoppers.
Probably we should ask Sol how exacly chryssalids should be represented with BAI in particular.

[Abyss]

Xilmi, I overviewed the units RUL file and found few inconsistencies regarding intelligence numbers.
A sub-conclusion is: intelligence in RUL file may not correlate with 0-10 scale, but rather represents some abstract behavioral model. I mean, that int =1 doesn't mean that creature is stupidier than one with int = 6, it might be just some other decision-making framework.
Have to ask someone more knowledgeable about the topic.
Also, same little trouble may be with unit aggrassiveness in the Rul file, too. 

UPD: FYI created the topic in X-COM-FILES subforum
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,11706.msg160301.html#msg160301

[panzer]

Numenator = 1
Denominator = 2

Well, if you set the squad's aggression mode to the unit's intelligence, then you should have 2 in the numerator and 2 in the denominator. So, if the unit's aggression is conditionally equal to 3, it will look like this (2/2)*3. In your case, the final value will reduce the aggression of opponents by 2 times. (This may not be accurate )

[Xilmi]

One more thing I noticed playing campaign. It is near impossible to acquire live specimen as they all carry preprimed grenades. Kamikazes.
Looks like the only way to do it is to jump on somebody with few soldiers with stun rods and pick the primed grenade once the body falls. Didn't try it yet but it seems to be quite difficult.
Long range stunning becomes quite useless for this purpose.

Aliens pre-priming their grenades is also an optional feature, that can be turned off separately.

You said you are playing campaign with this mod too. How do you capture them?

Sometimes they randomly just survive. I haven't gotten far enough to do a deliberate life-capture on higher-ups.

[Xilmi]

Also when you guys play quick combat, which race do you play against? I found that even slight variation in alien toughness has very significant effect on the combat. Six soldiers have enough firepower to fend off six Gillmen but six Lobstermen will just cut through them as hot knife through butter just because they cannot be killed in one turn.

It seems to require quite fine tuning in alien stats to make campaign playable.

I definitely wouldn't go up against Lobstermen in basic gear. You need the tftd-equivalent of power-suits and some sort of melee-weapon, which they are weak against.

[Xilmi]

Is unit intelligence used anywhere in current default settings?

Not in default-settings. You'd have to modify the "Intelligence-mode"-setting and put it to "1" or "2" in order for unit-intelligence to have an impact on the AI's behavior.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Aliens pre-priming their grenades is also an optional feature, that can be turned off separately.

No need to turn it off. This is the key feature. I am thinking how to work life capture out with this. It should be fine if it is difficult but doable.
Other option could be to exhaust them from grenades. How many they are carrying?

Sometimes they randomly just survive. I haven't gotten far enough to do a deliberate life-capture on higher-ups.

They may randomly survives in vanilla after shot at but their own grenade makes sure they are dead. I never just randomly captured lived one yet.