OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Work In Progress => Topic started by: kikimoristan on March 06, 2015, 06:16:18 am
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On modsite https://www.openxcom.com/mod/chemical-thrower (https://www.openxcom.com/mod/chemical-thrower)
New update 1.3 check it out
Tech tree is
Chemical Weapns ----> Chemical Thrower ---> ammo for CT
Chemical Weapons + Alloys ---> Toxi-Suit
(https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3433.0;attach=14108;image)
CHEMICAL THROWER
This weapon is unlike all other vanilla weapons. It shoots (or more likely spits out ) chemicals at close range. Is kinda like a next level flamer . Not only that but can shot out damage types other weapons don't like smoke or acid. Is kinda a combination of heavy cannon, grenade, melee weapon (high close range aim/damage), smoke grenade and electoflare.
Can be used for support using incendiary for illumination at night or smoke
Can be used for high damage acid or medium damage incendiary
Can be used to stun a group of units
Projectile travels in an arc so you can use it to shoot over some obstacles and use the area damage effect to deal damage to units aound corners or in places without direct LOS
In other words is most multipurpose weapon there is.
Overview of stats:
- has very low TU for both aimed and snap.
- aim decreases by 10/square but has incredibly high aim to compensate
- has a max range of 15 squares (to shoot that far you need 75+ aim soldier)
- can take 4 different ammo types
- all ammo types are odd typs : smoke, acid, stun, incendiary
- all (except ACID) ammo types deal area damage of radius 3 (6 squares diameter) so affects an area of 15 squares. this weapon always deals some damage due to area damage but aiming and firing requires close range for maximum effectivenes . essentially it fakes a flamer-type spread.
- weapon itself is pretty cheap and so is the ammo and is not TOO heavy. all ammo types +weapon on 1 soldier is about 30-40 weight.
NEW TOXI-SUIT
A special armor that is immune to fire, stun and smoke and resistant to high explosive and acid. Now you can safely make you chem trooper. Is same cost/reseach req as Personal Armor but also requires Chemical Weapons special research.
Versions:
1.3 reduces research time by 20% and reduces manufacturing costs and sell costs for toxi suit (only 3 alloys now)
1.2 rebalances Toxi-Suit and Chemical Thrower:
- Toxi-Suit now gives 36 under armor and 26 all around armor
- Chemical Thrower Radioactiv Mix (acid) ammo is nerfed to 122 based on discussions on the forum si is not to op. Can still one shot most enemies but has a harder time against hardened (ie mehcanical) units like cyberdisks, tanks etc.
1.1 adds Toxi-Suit & changes research tree.
1.0 first version
Enjoy ;)
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the stun may be a bit OP?? you can 1 hit range stun sectoids if you crit but mostly 2, 3 hits. dunno if i should reduce the damage. i reduced incendiary to 100, and probably gonna reduce smoke to 40 or 45 .
and still playing around with accuracy/dropoff settings. i kinda lik aim 150 200 and dropoff 10/square cause you can kinda calculate in your head by counting squares sortof like 10 squares away -100 accuracy ex: if your guy has like 70 accuracy and you be like click on the Snap Shot and says 150% but then you count how many squares to the target you go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ,8 squares away well is not 150 no more but around maybe 50-70% ish. it actually drops fast you'd be suprised. 8 squares away is nothing.
oh and added handobs, floorobs for all ammo types. all i need is custom sounds. new file is not up yet
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hy tollworkout,
tried on quickbattle only ::)
graphics are good, but... toxic ammos give me the idea of some big box, not something you can
carry on a backpack.
playwise: If I was an X-Com soldier I would not spray toxic or other dangerous chemicals too
near myself. I would love your thrower just the reverse you have done it :o
What about using "minRange" instead? Spraying away the distant battlefield to force aliens
in the open. I would love this.
Large blast radius, low damage, and damaging your troups too if catched on.
This would be a real novelty :)
Not deadly but useful in large maps.
Too many short range weapons already for my taste,
but chemical/toxic is a very good idea, it soo evil :P
Only my opinion... cheers ;)
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thanks Mono. I want it keep it as a close range weapon but i could extend the rang to 20. i just like 10/sq is easy to calculate in your head. alternatively i can make aim higher 250% aimed and 200% snap. that way you can shoot father but might get op aim too close. right now is halfway. with a unit 70 aim it can be really deadly.
the idea for the weapon is a support rather than assault weapon. can lay smoke, fire and stun. the stun is really handy.
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my apologies, I'm a bit drunk right now.
I have tried to change your project to my own desire. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. :-X
I will try out the chem thrower a bit more next week.
Still think that your idea of spraying an alien with chemical waste is a badass one and I'm
somewhat envious for this :P
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Ahaha is okay any suggestion/opinions welcome :) & you're welcome to edit rulset any way yu wish :-)
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I don't know very well "arcing shot", but if it makes the same trajectory as grenades, note that it makes the weapon very nearly useless in XCOM and alien bases, because the low roofs reduce the range tremendously.
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is not same as grenades. is like celatid weapon. is just doesn't go straight line so it may hit things a bit above your firing trajectory. takes a bit of practice to get to use it well. but the projectile can travel over things esp useful with ignore LOS option and deals area damage. like fences or walls or trees. ideally something 1 tile high arced shot can travel over it if aimed in a certain way.
the area damage is problematic cause it affects your own guy. i m gonna make a special suit Env-Suit with immunity to stun/incendiary/smoke that will come with the mod eventually. But until then use smoke mask or hazmat suit mods with it.
EDIT: tested it just now seems to work in alien bases
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Hello,
a suit like the "Hazmat armour" ?
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,2610.msg29584.html#msg29584
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Hello,
a suit like the "Hazmat armour" ?
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,2610.msg29584.html#msg29584
i'm actually gonna make my own armor for a chem trooper so chemical thrower doesn't affect you when you go really close up. WIP this component
but yes use that for now.
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Hey dudes just updated the mod.
Now once you can reseach Toxi-Suit which is a low armor with stun/incendiary/smoke immunity and high resistance to explosives and a bit of resistance to acid.
The idea is to make a heavy Chem Trooper that can use Chem Thrower at close range without risk.
Ideally you'd want high STR on your Chem guy & high AIM.
I have changed research tree.
Chemical Weapons -> Chemical Thrower, Toxi-Suit (also req Alloys)
Chem Thrower - > all ammo
Toxi-Suit costs same as personal armor .
Enjoy
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Nicely drawn suit, although all important it gives is immunity to Incendiary :) Immunity to stun can be nice, too... that is, until your soldier is MCed (unless you simply take the "commissar option" in that case) :)
Also looks like I'm not the only one stealing stuff from Fallout. :)
Good job in general, although this overkill toxic damage is perhaps too much - unless you want a weapon which can one-shot everything.
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thanks dioxine
and yeah i love fallout :)) although this weapon is from bioshock but adapted to xcom world. the toxic ammo is a fusion cell from fallout but modified by be just a bit. i always thought that is a canister of something and not just a tiny battery.
yeah i know toxic damage is a bit too high but is not area damage so you need to aim right and be pretty close.
you're still weak against plasma with practically no armor. is +4 armor/side higher than coveralls. so is risky.
i m gonna probably nerf the acid damage . what would be a good choice? it needs to be still high. maybe 100? cause almost eveyon gets 160% acid damage.
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yo also i was gonna make it require personal armor at first but then i thought maybe ppl use it with complete overhauls like piratez or xeno ops etc so i just made it require alloys as (i assume) everyone uses alloys (i hope).
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Just ask yourself a question, what alien should be killable in a single shot, and how likely it'll be. Assuming a Muton with 30 armor 70 health 100% acid res (not sure if right numbers), a 100 damage weapon would kill him 50/50 in a single shot, as you can roll anywhere between 1-200 (0-200?) on damage. If he has 160% acid "res" he'd die if you rolled 100/1.6 = 62.5 on damage so 68.75% of one-hit-kill. With you 148 power weapon, the probability is nearing 80%. Do the calcs for Sectopods and Cyberdiscs and you will know, exactly, how good the weapon is (considering its obvious drawbacks - you need to approach really close). And killing in a single shot is obviously important, although Snap rules all here - you only need to cover a few tiles more to get the same accurracy as with Aimed - with 70 acc, this weapon is 100% accurate from 4 tiles away with Aimed, and you only need to get 3 steps closer to get a sure hit. Then again, when UFO breaching, it's the first shot that counts - and this weapon is obviously at least as good as Heavy Plasma in that department. I don't know, it's pretty balanced imo, if powerful. Needs testing. But I'd go with figure around 100, yeah, and see how's going from there.
But is UFO breaching with all guns blazing the right way to do it? :)
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Just ask yourself a question, what alien should be killable in a single shot, and how likely it'll be. Assuming a Muton with 30 armor 70 health 100% acid res (not sure if right numbers), a 100 damage weapon would kill him 50/50 in a single shot, as you can roll anywhere between 1-200 (0-200?) on damage. If he has 160% acid "res" he'd die if you rolled 100/1.6 = 62.5 on damage so 68.75% of one-hit-kill. With you 148 power weapon, the probability is nearing 80%. Do the calcs for Sectopods and Cyberdiscs and you will know, exactly, how good the weapon is (considering its obvious drawbacks - you need to approach really close).
yeah the idea was a weapon that forces you to play close..and going close you gonna get busted down by reaction fire. so is like you can 1 shot anything pretty much but you can't cause you need to go close without dying. change ammo lay some smoke. maybe change ammo again some fire for visibility. ultimately you decide you gonna try to stun him cause acid is too random aim. is intentionally done that way. rad is a bait ammo. you wanna use it for smoke /stun like 90% of the time. is the most safe play. but if you can take a rad/toxic shot anything insta death.
edit: tbh this weapon is very conceptual. i wanted to make something as close as possible to a flamethrower/spray type weapon but make worrk with the limitations of xcom and i wanted it to be useful weapon and new and different that adds new mechanics the game. the only drawback was area damage that affects the shooter which i fixed with the toxi-suit.
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Just ask yourself a question, what alien should be killable in a single shot, and how likely it'll be. Assuming a Muton with 30 armor 70 health 100% acid res (not sure if right numbers), a 100 damage weapon would kill him 50/50 in a single shot, as you can roll anywhere between 1-200 (0-200?) on damage. If he has 160% acid "res" he'd die if you rolled 100/1.6 = 62.5 on damage so 68.75% of one-hit-kill. With you 148 power weapon, the probability is nearing 80%. Do the calcs for Sectopods and Cyberdiscs and you will know, exactly, how good the weapon is (considering its obvious drawbacks - you need to approach really close). And killing in a single shot is obviously important, although Snap rules all here - you only need to cover a few tiles more to get the same accurracy as with Aimed - with 70 acc, this weapon is 100% accurate from 4 tiles away with Aimed, and you only need to get 3 steps closer to get a sure hit. Then again, when UFO breaching, it's the first shot that counts - and this weapon is obviously at least as good as Heavy Plasma in that department. I don't know, it's pretty balanced imo, if powerful. Needs testing. But I'd go with figure around 100, yeah, and see how's going from there.
But is UFO breaching with all guns blazing the right way to do it? :)
@Dioxine. What a great, simple, and perceptive discussion on weapon balance! I think that this is a key to most mods! And one that often suffers due to enthusiasm to make the "ultimate weapon" or the "coolest thing around" (especially in new modders).
I think a thread about modding weapon balance would be a great sticky resource for new modders. ;)
At some point a "Modders Handbook" might be nice too, pointing folks to yaml checkers, falko's tools, pckview, mapview, info on sprites and pallettes, ruleset references, etc.
Cheers, Ivan :D
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At some point a "Modders Handbook" might be nice too, pointing folks to yaml checkers, falko's tools, pckview, mapview, info on sprites and pallettes, ruleset references, etc.
Cheers, Ivan :D
Yes, this would be so great. It's quite painful looking through tons of threads and the wiki to get good info on modding.
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testing your mod...
Phosphor is, IMO, of limited use: less range and less radius than regular smoke. Not so good for cover, but you have 4 shoot with very low time usage, so maybe is OK.
Nitrogen is good. It will be a valid alternative to stun rod on early game. It will become useless when small launcher is discovered but this how it's supposed to work. Like it.
Napalm is gold! 10 shots, limited weight. Better than any other fire weapons. But being a fire weapons is of limited use, just as intended.
Chem Waste: OP? Not much. This is why:
Limited range, no radius. Being the chem thrower a support weapon, you will carry a secondary weapon. But chem thrower is a 3x2 item. Waste ammos is a 2x2 item. You really have to carefully choose your equipment. Very wise choice tollworkout, hat off for you.
You have balanced the weapon not with stats alone, but using encumbrance too!
Maybe reducing ammo from 12 to 6-4 will resolve the OP problem (just a suggestion).
Toxy-suite: a very light armor, limited use. OK for an early armor, but why the alloy requirement? If I research alloy, the Personal Armor is a much better choice. So, please, remove alloy as requirement or make the toxy available to buy from the beginning.
I will throw you an idea: what about giving the toxy-suite a huge under-armor (only the under!) of 80-120? This will make the toxy a bomb squad-tipe armor, useful for stepping over mines. This way you can make the toxi-suite a bit more useful even when Personal Armor is available (personal opinion, do what you like).
Research: When I start a game I, like most players, want laser rifles (or heavy plasmas) as fast as I can, and I tend to skip non vital equipments. The research requirement for chem weapons are not so high but are lengthy... What if chem weapons will unlock something useful really quick: chem thrower + phosphor + napalm or chem thrower + phosphor + nitrogen or chem thrower + both, just with only one research (maybe make them costly to produce).
This way players will be less tempted to skip the research of chemical branch. Later in the game the chem weapons will lose effectiveness (exception for chem waste). You must have them very quickly or you will end not using them (with veteran soldiers and Flying Suite, fire, and smoke are less important).
This was my review. Trying to be useful, sorry for being over critic. :P
Your mod is a worthy addition to the battle against the alien menace ;D
Keep on with it, and thank for sharing.
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Tollworkout, please let me use this armour in the Final Mod Pack.
Actually, let's make a deal: in exchange, I made an improvement on the backpack. :) (See attachment.)
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that's valid. i like the idea of under armor. and shorter research time is also valid. laser is useful and chem thrower is more of a support weapon. perhaps ill add 5 shots to smoke.
ive made these changes for the next version
Radioactive Mix - acid 122 damage (before was 142) same clip size (12)
why? most enemies are weak against acid anyway except for mechanical units . takes about 1-3 hits of acid to kill most units. since aiming is hard and size of ammo is big then having more shots is essential to get more tries so left clip size unchanged.
White Phosphor - 5 clip size (before was 4)
why? because radius is small so you will need to hit a few times anyway.
Toxi-Suit - increased under armor to 36 (previously 9)
im gonna try this out see if it works better. power armor is 30 underneath.
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I'm guessing that under armor of 36 wont make that much difference. You are trying to give it protection from alien grenades, power 90. So unless you are two tiles away from a blast, (not likely?) you won't probably survive much? Idk... it just feels like it should be higher if you are actually trying to make it a good trade off with powersuit for under armor. Maybe 50-70. Just a guess.
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Tollworkout, please let me use this armour in the Final Mod Pack.
Actually, let's make a deal: in exchange, I made an improvement on the backpack. :) (See attachment.)
you obvs missed my little notice https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,3450.0.html (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,3450.0.html) . if you don't feel like clicking says of course/you can do anything you want with it :)
also a suggestion my original sprite work matches the inventory image better with square visor. i already had the backpack square visor version edited further down just copy them over the no backpack ones. is no biggie . is just i like the little details. i gonnna bug me in the game haha. i intentionally made it match. but is up to you :)
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Thanks!
I think I'll experiment with the visor later. But I'd rather keep the backpack.
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I'm guessing that under armor of 36 wont make that much difference. You are trying to give it protection from alien grenades, power 90. So unless you are two tiles away from a blast, (not likely?) you won't probably survive much? Idk... it just feels like it should be higher if you are actually trying to make it a good trade off with powersuit for under armor. Maybe 50-70. Just a guess.
but also has HE 60% so that + armor 36 hmm... power 90 becomes power 54 and 36 armor underneath...with that much armor you can survive it if you luck out of sub 100% damage. 0 - 200% you got 50/50 chance of surviving. to make it always suvive it i need to make it 56 instead.
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50/50 survival is pretty good then. ;)
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Thanks!
I think I'll experiment with the visor later. But I'd rather keep the backpack.
if you change your mind here's one that matches with inventory sprite, corpse sprite and floorob
also i fixed 2 bugs you had moved a backpack a bit too much to the side vs the body in right facing and back facing positions.
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50/50 survival is pretty good then. ;)
right? is my math ok?
alien grenade @ vanilla 0 - 200% damage rule
min 90 * 0 = 0
max 90 * 2.0 = 180
with 60% he damage reduction
0 - 108
after 36 armor
0 - 72
100 / 180 * 72 = 40% chance of dying
meanwhile personal armor has 83% chance of dying
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My idea was of an unit that can survive regular grenades or remove proximity mine just stepping over with very low chances of being hurt (can be useful to step over a mine inside an UFO, with alien near you and low TU 8)).
I wasn't thinking of alien grenades, aliens don't carry much grenades on early game (mostly a third tier weapons on alienDeployment), and toxi-armor is an early game armor. When I get Power Armor of Flying Armor I will switch to them anyway. The idea was to prolong the usefulness of Toxi-Armor. I may decide to carry all Toxi instead of the more powerful Personal Armor if the mission involve a sectoid leader.
Usually, with a sectoid leader, I un-equip all my grenades and drop all weapons at end of turn, but with some sort of bomb squad armor, I can decide play the mission with grenades on, trading grenade usefulness for a less plasma-resistant Armor.
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I'm guessing that under armor of 36 wont make that much difference. You are trying to give it protection from alien grenades, power 90. So unless you are two tiles away from a blast, (not likely?) you won't probably survive much? Idk... it just feels like it should be higher if you are actually trying to make it a good trade off with powersuit for under armor. Maybe 50-70. Just a guess.
Under armor is only used against explosives if you are at ground zero or 1 tile next to GZ (so in a 9 tiles square centered where the explosion happens). Otherwise you take damage on the side (front/rear/side) that faces the explosion. So this armor will be rather weird. You're probably better off stepping on a grenade than having it explode away from you(?!).
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Exactly what I intended!
A weird but (on occasion) useful armor ;D
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also you are immune to stun and smoke and incendiary making you able to shoot any of those damage types on your unit without fear making using chem thrower effective at close range that's why i created the armor it compliments the weapon to make a chem tooper a unit that throws chems at everyone but is not affected.
but most useful aspect of it is mines/grenades. a regular grenades is power 60 making it like 20% death rate . poximity mines are probably same. i can't give immunity to explosives as that will make half of alien weapons useless. i could further increase HE resistance to 50% or 55%
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maybe i should make this armor backwards like under most, sides /front same and im gonna make he 55% resistance
EDIT:
right now is under 36%, all other sides 26% and kept it 60% HE resistance
that should give it good protection vs explosives but not be OP.
thanks for the feedback guys
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Thanks everyone for your helpful suggestions. With your help I can say with high certainty that this mod is now balanced for play and not too OP and not too weak.
I have reduced damage for acid to 122
I have increases armor of Toxi-Suit to 26 all sides and 36 underneath and kept default the 60% HE and 80% acid as well as immunity to fire, smoke and stun.
I have tweaked the ufopaedia a bit as well for Toxi-Suit.
I have also reduced research time by 20% and reduced cost of manufacturing (less funds and only 3 alloys)/selling a Toxi-Suit
Thank you.
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Tollworkout, please let me use this armour in the Final Mod Pack.
Actually, let's make a deal: in exchange, I made an improvement on the backpack. :) (See attachment.)
using my original sprites you can do
forcedTorso: 0 (with backpack)
forcedToso : 1 (no backpack)
you don't need to have to change both sets with backpack . you seem to have edited the backpack on both torso types . armor has two types of torso for male/female and you can force it if you want using the command above. on ion suit that was modelled on you use that feature to go from backpack to no backpack. flying suit does the same thing. i wanted to use a big fat diving suit to imitate firproof shielding on top of regular armor. a fireprof suit which has silvery shiny reflective coveralls on top of a gasmask/breathing apparatus. the backpack is on the inside . external backpacks like that are often on rad suits or hazmat suits but mine is sorotf a mix of fireproof/hazmat with firepoof look.https://www.giordanigiancarlo.com/assets/images/prodotti/set-industria.jpg . also the little blue lighs exposed won't be good for fireproofing and will burn fast in a fire. haha but knock yourself out you're free to use this any way you wish: - )