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Modding => Released Mods => The X-Com Files => Topic started by: tris85 on November 14, 2023, 12:17:46 pm

Title: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: tris85 on November 14, 2023, 12:17:46 pm
First of all I really need to say how much I love this mod! Such an awesome work - so much fun - so much appreciation! A friend and I are ... at least trying to ... play it on superhuman ironman. Sure, it is super hard - but that's what it's supposed to be. We do like competitions  ;) Played all of the old stuff again and again on highest difficulty without allowing ourselfes to save / reload. We started this mod some times again until we said: OK, now we've got it - and brought it quite far I guess. We're just allowing ourselfes to check new mission types for the "idea" (just take 2-3 turns, copy back, than we go "live").

But at our current state it feels like we're maybe too late in the tech-tree (what I can't believe) or the game concept just ... is a bit lagging.

First of all we're facing many UFOs we don't have ANY chance to intercept with our helis and one Arrow. We just wait for them to land, start the mission and almost every time immediatelly take of, since our poor weapons too have NO chance against thoes ... one eyed dudes (don't get their name right now). It feels a bit desperate ... but yeah, aliens are attacking the earth! We will get better weapons, it might be desperate in the beginning ... so ... cool for me. Just not having any chance to intercept them is a bit hard (meaning too hard  ::) )

Second problem are the Hybrid bases. Protected by UFOs we first need to trigger and flee. Still OK for me. But my main point of criticism is the base mission than. We are starting in the middle of many strongly armed soldiers. There is no chance AT ALL to even leave the starting point. Everywhere way too many opponents right next to us with full TU just waiting for a reaction shot. And even attacking them the next turn is suicide. We need our TUs for reaction shot. So the best is to just stay on the walls in the lading room, skipping turn by turn hoping every opponent gets killed by reaction not being able to shoot our soldiers. It actually works most of the time. But that really doesn't feel like gaming any more. Am I mistaken here? Are we maybe doing something completely wrong? If we were starting a bit offside we could capture rooms and have a nice fight with the Hybrids. But right now it just feels like a messy game design (so sorry for saying that!  :-X). And I really don't see any chance in leaving the room. Like ... totally no chance  :'(
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: krautbernd on November 14, 2023, 12:33:59 pm
The mod is not balanced (if it is balanced at all) with SH in mind, much less if you don't know exactely how things work.

 If you run into a wall while playing it don't go blaming the wall. Default difficulty is set to veteran for a reason. Just accept that it's not going to work out and chose a lower one that's playable and enjoyable for you and your friend.

I really don't know where this "trend" of playing everything on the super highest difficulty comes from, let alone why people are surprised by games or mods actually being difficult if not impossible to beat if they choose set difficulty.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Yankes on November 14, 2023, 12:38:48 pm
"Beware, pain ahead!"

Ignore warning.

"Why I am in pain??"

:>
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on November 14, 2023, 01:55:42 pm
I've played with XCF with SH IM a number of times (close to the end game, though not bothered to complete it). It is doable, if you take the time to learn the right tactics and strategy (like how to ramp up your research and how to focus it, and what equipment is useful in the midst of hundreds of pieces of junk equipment). If you don't bother to learn the right tactics, the workings of spotter/sniper game mechanics, etc., it will be a disaster. It can be doable especially if you allow yourself cheating by restarting the mission.

Regarding hybrid bases, with SH (and even veteran I think) you should definitely not exit the base landing areas and go out to explore. Depending on terrain it is usually OK to drop out and shoot or throw out high-explosives, though. You'll not end the turn by leaving an agent downstairs. In difficult spots, you may need to rely on staying upstairs and relying on reaction shots / reaction barking for a few turns. So, for at least 10 turns or so, do that and you've killed off anyone that could come wandering nearby.

Hybrid bases are actually one of the easiest missions at least when you have decent equipment (at least BO auto-sniper/sniper) and some armors (Tritanium vest or better, possibly cyber armor at that point). There will be MUCH more difficult missions in the pipeline, for example, Syndicate HQ.

Based on the questions you ask I think you're going to have a very rough time going forward. Maybe after learning a bit more you should restart to get a better start.

Regarding intercepting. You don't need to do any intercepting before 1999. By that time you should have at least researched RAVEN and THUNDERSTORM, even if you haven't wanted to use the alloys to build one. If you don't, you're way behind the curve. It sounds like you're research is lagging badly. Remember, you'll need to have multiple bases with science labs, intel, and bio labs (35 researchers each) within a year or so, and improved labs on multiple bases before 1999. So, your goal should be at least 150-200 scientists within 18 or 24 months.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Chuckebaby on November 14, 2023, 02:39:45 pm
got any smoke ? Smoke it up. Playing Iron man I used smoke like it was going out of style.
A craft with some cover also helps for the hybrid keep missions. Those dudes are throw happy and 1/2 of them are using Black Ops weapons.

I admire your passion though. I don't think i'd ever attempt superhuman ironman for xcf unless I had a text editor open in another window  ;D
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: tris85 on November 14, 2023, 04:53:31 pm
Don't get me wrong! I'm not blaming this mod to be too hard! I love too hard! In my opinion base fights just feel a bit ... misconceived.

Never the less ... yeah, we're probably a bit late in research. But still I guess as fast as we could be! We got 7 bases around the globe and with every monthly income our income increased so far. Never the less by the mid of '99 we're only researching with 80 scientists. Couldn't afford more until now. Money is really a hard limiting factor! But I like it! Feels pretty competitive. But yeah, no Raven / Thunderstorm in sight.

We sure needed to spend some money on soldiers. Could have had (even) less losses and more research. But all in all I guess we're not that far behind. Ok ... So bases ARE just reaction barking / shooting for 10 turns ... Thats how it is I guess.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on November 14, 2023, 05:15:57 pm
Never the less by the mid of '99 we're only researching with 80 scientists. Couldn't afford more until now. Money is really a hard limiting factor! But I like it! Feels pretty competitive. But yeah, no Raven / Thunderstorm in sight.

I don't think there is ANY way to succeed with those resources. You will need to think what you could have done differently in order to be able to invest much more on scientists and also much earlier. As said, by mid-1999 you could have up to 350 scientists (with very little to research anymore, if you don't get to advanced labs), but at the very least you should have something like 200. Now you're lagging behind at least a year, maybe more, behind in the research and cannot progress. Because progressing also involves a significant number of interrogation, you're stumped because you don't have throughput for basic research, let alone interrogation.

In the beginning you need to focus on building up additional research capacity fast, so that you don't limp along with 5 or 10 scientists for a year or longer. For a large part of the first year, you can focus on expanding and saving to improve the first base (for example, the science lab once it is available), and gradually build more bases with science lab and/or other facilities.

There are also certain missions that you can keep on churning to get money. For example, you don't want to destroy the Tasoth Factory until you've sufficient funds. For example, Undersea City and Tasoth Factory both give you about 10M each in selling all the useless components they provide.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Empiro on November 14, 2023, 09:09:20 pm
One mod I'd recommend is the one that lowers enemy TUs on the first turn. A bit of a cheat, but it removes the frustration of having so many enemies essentially spawn camping you.

Other than that, if you have a tactic that works, then use it. There's no such thing as cheesy when the game is out to punish you at that difficulty. Really understanding how enemy AI works is also crucial (how they can spot you and use scout-sniper, when they throw grenades, how many TUs they tend to reserve, etc.).

Strategically, I agree that getting the best start is necessary to avoid falling behind. The early game is a combination of doing the right research to unlock the better (money-making) missions, ramping up research at the right time (too late and you're behind, too early and you can't afford the scientists), and getting the right equipment (mostly protection early on, then getting the BlackOps weapons).

In my latest playthrough, I think I've also identified a key strategy for the early-mid game:

- Try to unlock the Syndicate Missions early on. This is done through Red Dawn and Durathread Origins topics
- The early Syndicate Missions are reasonably easy (a modest number of guards with BlackOps weapons and Armored Vests, so bring grenades)
- What you really want is the Syndicate Warehouse. Don't advance past that part (I think Syndicate Experiments and similar research will move past it). Each Syndicate Warehouse (only a handful of guards) can get you a bunch of the Syndicate Crates. There are a number of nice guns you can get from that (Smart Rifle, etc.), but the gun you really want is the BlackOps Smartgun. If you have that, then you're basically set for half the game. I'm pretty sure you can get the gun without Promotion 3, but no matter what, you can easily source the ammo because it uses normal BlackOps Assault LMG ammo (which you just need the Machine Guns license for)
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on November 15, 2023, 05:54:29 am
I don't get it. You have dogs. They are not exactly the kind of unit you have to fawn over and keep them safe. I'd spearhead the assault with 8+ expendable dogs and then pick up from there with competent troops. Eat the hybrid, then cover the "hanging" dog with smoke. Move dogs through the smoke to keep visibility and reactions low. Dogs with pockets can have activated smoke inside (or explosive, if you're into FUN tactics). Overall, most aliens have surprisingly hard time countering plain dog rush.
If you choose to turtle, that's on you. But yeah, it is a really effective strat.

You're clearly lagging in tech, but not that much. If you had psi/tanks to bait the fire, the hybrid bases would be a breeze. Also with some luck you could have looted power suits from mibs/underwater captures.
I had ravens/thunderstorms up in the air around May 99 in my completed IM/SH run, so your campaign doesn't seem to be too far off.

Even with bad, promo II-ish tech 99% encounters are still winnable, even against sectopods. But you have to pick right tools for the job (and probably sacrifice some troops to win).
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: tris85 on November 16, 2023, 10:51:10 am
350 scientists?! In the early game? Are you serious?!  :o One of the prior games was abandoned due to too heavy research: Nothing left to research and way too expensive salaries! We ran out of soldiers / equipement. So we decided to do a bit less research and have more soldiers training. Imho our balance right now is quite good (even if there could be a bit more research, yeah!). By the way: we got many alien technologies right now that can't be researched - whats their dependency? E.g. sonar pistols, plasma weapons etc..

But yeah, many dogs it is! Haven't seen the forest because of the trees! We're playing in a mode where we are counting losses and the one with more losses has to pay lunch the next day. So losses always were quite unacceptable. But we need to get maaaany negligible dogs (that don't count for our lunch  ;) ) clearing the first floor so our good troups can come down safely, spread smoke and so on. And the income of a base surely covers the dogs costs! Thank you so much for that great idea!
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on November 16, 2023, 04:28:22 pm
350 scientists?! In the early game? Are you serious?!  :o One of the prior games was abandoned due to too heavy research: Nothing left to research and way too expensive salaries! We ran out of soldiers / equipement. So we decided to do a bit less research and have more soldiers training. Imho our balance right now is quite good (even if there could be a bit more research, yeah!).

How you ramp up the research is a delicate balance. As a rule of thumb you should be able to cover the monthly salaries with your current council funding. Building facilities, purchasing equipment and enrolling workers may be something you will need to use other finances as well (except in the very early game, where - except for a few lucky streaks - council funding is net positive).

1999 is already midgame. By the end of 1998 you should have probably about 5-7 bases, with at least a science lab in each (25 researchers), possibly other labs (5-10 more researchers). So let's say this is totalling about 120-180. Sometime in the early 1999, you will hopefully have enough tritanium to start building improved labs, to get deeper research opportunities and further researchers.

Quote
By the way: we got many alien technologies right now that can't be researched - whats their dependency? E.g. sonar pistols, plasma weapons etc..

Use the tech-tree viewer or xcf.trigramreactor.net. There is very little chance to succeed unless you do your research, pun intended.

You should sell off all the plasma equipment you get until about mid-1999. This will give dozens of millions of money, and all of it is less thans useless to you until the advanced labs are in the pipeline (and by that time, you have obtained much more of them in any case). There are also a lot of other alien components you could sell off if you're short on cash. This is a hint of one of the sources fo your financial problems.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Empiro on November 17, 2023, 12:39:32 am
The rule that you want to keep staff expenses about in-line with funding is a good one, but I can't imagine supporting so many bases by 1999. I would say that once you have some experience with the game and have a good general idea about the key research topics, you don't necessarily need a huge number of scientists. Much of the research is for weapons and gear you'll never bother using, or UFOPedia entries that are only for points.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on November 17, 2023, 07:05:37 am
The thing about research, especially interrogation, is that there are a LOT of regular getOneFree and protected topics. It makes sense to research all of those by interrogating the enemies where research is the cheapest, so that you don't waste the more valuable and more expensive enemies to these topics (and instead get more valuable information out of them). (You cannot rely on getting enough Secret Files, etc. to get these easily.) Compared to vanilla, how you progress in the research tree also depends a lot on RNG on which subsequent topics opens up.

For specific example, before going down the MIB path, you should clear all the protected and other available topics first (because MIBs are very expensive compared to the the others in the same timeframe). And before starting interrogating alien leaders, engineers and navigators, you've hopefully learned all the topics you can get from the hybrids, because you want every topic you get from leaders, engineers and navigators to progress the tech tree so that you can get access to better techs earlier. (Hybrids are also much cheaper than the MIBs.)

But it is certainly true are a huge number of research topics (non-interrogation) that don't progress the game, open further opportunities and are rather useless. You can and should definitely deprioritize these anyway (after playing once or twice, you learn them). But based on my experience, there is still a LOT that you must go through, and combined with all the enemy interrogation you need to do, I can't see how you could keep up even with, say, 100 scientists by the end of 1998. Or at the least you're handicapping yourself by not progressing as quickly as you could if you had made different choices on how much you put into research.

In contrast, in my current SH IM game, I had something like 250-300 in 1999 and over 400 scientists by the end of 1999. That was certainly a bit of overkill, because in the second half of the year, I only had a couple of topics left and I had already exhausted all the junk as well. But at that point I had nothing else to do with the money in any case, so why not. At least every new thing that pops up (in this case the topics opened up after advanced labs such as plasmas) were straightforward and did not need to compete with other dozens of more important research topics (for example, a space-capable transport).
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: tris85 on November 17, 2023, 02:18:55 pm
Sorry but I can't imagine how this should work in an SU IM game. 300 scientists cost 13.500.000$ per month! No chance you earn this in SU in the beginning of 1999. And that's just the scientists cost! You need bases, planes, agents, engineers ... I'm not quite sure if this works without playing a totally perfect game (by saving / loading).

And sure you could sell equipement etc. pp. (what I surely does; I just keep one of every plasma etc. for future research) but you cannot make around 20 Mios / month in an SU game at the end of 1998. Or at least ... it's just beyond my imagination  ;D
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on November 17, 2023, 03:46:44 pm
In my SH IM current game, in January 2000 the council income is 58M and maintenance 37M. I just reloaded my previous SH IM game (which I didn't bother to continue beyond that point), in June 1999 the council income was 27M and maintenance 26M. In another veteran IM game in December 1999, income was 45M and maintenance 30M.

I guess I could try to look up some earlier saves (that I posted here, to report some bugs etc.) but I don't think it's worth it. I'd say earning 15-20M a month in the beginning of 1999 should not be all that difficult. So it's more a matter of how you spend the money.

By the end of 1998, you don't even need more than, say, 50-80 engineers, because there aren't all that many things you really need to manufacture that would take a lot of time. You can play the whole game with just one workshop. Agents are not all that expensive, and you should not need hundreds of them. If they get killed in every mission, you are doing something wrong. Playing 'good' ironman is characterized by adopting playstyles where you don't get killed all the time, rather than tanking all the losses that come at you.

Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Sneak Dog on November 17, 2023, 05:18:23 pm
How you ramp up the research is a delicate balance. As a rule of thumb you should be able to cover the monthly salaries with your current council funding. Building facilities, purchasing equipment and enrolling workers may be something you will need to use other finances as well (except in the very early game, where - except for a few lucky streaks - council funding is net positive).

1999 is already midgame. By the end of 1998 you should have probably about 5-7 bases, with at least a science lab in each (25 researchers), possibly other labs (5-10 more researchers). So let's say this is totalling about 120-180. Sometime in the early 1999, you will hopefully have enough tritanium to start building improved labs, to get deeper research opportunities and further researchers.

I'm on veteran, november 98, kept my score above 2k every month looking at my graphs. It hasn't been perfect, I think there's been about 4 incidents of countries not happy total due to stuff. Funding is 9 million. I suspect superhuman wouldn't have increased funding?

5 bases with 125 researchers costs 6 million in upkeep. That leaves you with 3 million in upkeep for agents, some engineers, vehicles and whatnot. Agents may well take half of that. Not to mention how each science laboratory costs roughly 2 million. (7 bases of this would cost 8.5 million upkeep by the way.)
Seems really tight, especially getting the 5 million per science base seems tough. That sounds like some manipulation of which missions can spawn is going on. Because I haven't gotten aliens pop up yet beyond the military shooting them down, so no selling those sweet alien weapons yet which is when the income really kicks off.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on November 17, 2023, 05:50:58 pm
I'm on veteran, november 98, kept my score above 2k every month looking at my graphs. It hasn't been perfect, I think there's been about 4 incidents of countries not happy total due to stuff. Funding is 9 million. I suspect superhuman wouldn't have increased funding?

Not as such increased funding, but because there are significantly more enemies on each mission (and each with loot), you can practically get a lot more points on each mission. Let's assume up to 40-50 % more maximum points per mission than with veteran. So I'd suspect the funding could go up in practice much faster in SH than veteran.

The funding can go up really fast once you do those missions which give you huge number of points (say 1000+ each). In my current SH game in January 2000 the funding is at some 57M and if the graph is correct, a year before it was something like 16M. So you can easily double and even quadruple the funding during 1999.

I also loaded my previous SH game that I stopped playing in June 1999. The income is at 27M. Based on the graph the income in January 1999 appears to have been around 15-16M and in July 1998 maybe 7.5-8M. So the funding appears to have been doubled in 6 months in 07/98-01/99. So if you get missions that give you good points the funding can really ramp up fast once you get on with it.

It's difficult to go into the specifics. Up until 1999, you don't really need any other crafts than 1-2 private cars, some vans, helicopter, an osprey, a land rover, and kitsune (and once you have the latter two, you no longer need the others). The rent for these is minimal. Until you get kitsune, you can do all missions either by a car or by fly-transfering from a main base, you don't need to stock up every base. You need only 50 soldiers and lots of dogs. You don't need more than 50-90 engineers ever. Though later in the game (in 1999+), once you start intercepting - and the enemies start retaliating -, you may want to deploy some more soldiers on other bases as well, depending on your interception strategy.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on November 17, 2023, 05:56:39 pm
Quote from: psavola
I'd say earning 15-20M a month in the beginning of 1999 should not be all that difficult.

Nope, it seems rather exceptional, so good job. And most likely depends on when you start to snowball on score. I mean, getting millions of funding is matter of "when", rather than "if". So the earlier you start to get 2k+ per month, the more funding you get by 1999.

Also, I wonder how much of points is from just research? Usually most $$ mission come up later (tasty aliens), so you get more money to get extra scientists. Extra scientists get you extra points. Voila, points-funding feedback loop.

Quote from: psavola
Agents are not all that expensive, and you should not need hundreds of them. If they get killed in every mission, you are doing something wrong.
Agreed! Every agent death feels like a honest-to-god mistake. If only I could stop making hundreds of them  ;D

That being said, getting this much funding is not at all necessary to beat the campaign, as invasion proceeds very lazily nowadays. For me, pre-99 is clearly the hardest part of the campaign, the rest is just mop-up. You can loot/capture some very cool stuff and snowball real quick.




Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on November 17, 2023, 06:07:48 pm
Also, I wonder how much of points is from just research? Usually most $$ mission come up later (tasty aliens), so you get more money to get extra scientists. Extra scientists get you extra points. Voila, points-funding feedback loop.

Could very well be so. Looking at my previous SH game (that I stopped playing in the beginning of June 1999), it seems I had over 2K-3K from research alone every month already a year ago (so, in the middle of 1998):

researchScores:
  - 2351
  - 3532
  - 3521
  - 3486
  - 2928
  - 3691
  - 4542
  - 5070
  - 4453
  - 3527
  - 5650
  - 1790
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Sneak Dog on November 17, 2023, 06:26:34 pm
Maybe XCOM files works differently, but as I understood 2k points is all you need to make countries happy for the highest increase tier of 5%~20%. This'd mean that funding goes up a lot later on because it's compounding. Not because your score gets so much better. If you get 12.5% each month for 12 months, that quadruples your income. (1.125^12 = 4.1)

https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Country_Funding_(EU)#Monthly_Funding_Change
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on November 17, 2023, 07:12:39 pm
Maybe XCOM files works differently, but as I understood 2k points is all you need to make countries happy for the highest increase tier of 5%~20%. This'd mean that funding goes up a lot later on because it's compounding. Not because your score gets so much better. If you get 12.5% each month for 12 months, that quadruples your income. (1.125^12 = 4.1)

https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Country_Funding_(EU)#Monthly_Funding_Change

I haven't really looked at this so I working on assumptions. You're probably right. Looking at the OXCE rulesets, there doesn't even appear to be a way to change these percentages directly.  There is an OXCE ruleset giving bonus funds directly proportional to the score (performanceBonusFactor) but it isn't used in XCF.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on November 17, 2023, 08:57:41 pm
As I understand it, the funding increase is effectively proportional to the score. The increase is RNG and each score point raises chance that country increases funding. There are like 100 countries without any guarantee that funding will be increased. Thus every increase in the chance counts, and there's no score limit to get "max" funding.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Juku121 on November 17, 2023, 09:31:32 pm
I'm not certain, either, since I don't have nor plan to have a Github account and thus can't search code very well...

But as I understand it, every month every country evaluates your performance and falls into one of these four categories: happy, satisfied, dissatisfied, pact. Your overall score generally correlates with that category, but not always (alien infiltration, lots of alien missions there, no X-Com presence, the works). Once they're happy, they'll just randomly roll on that 5-20% wheel.

Although I saw general Council happyness threshold being at 500, not 2000 'rating', which seems to be more or less score. @Sneak Dog, where does your 2000 value come from?



There are also custom score values ('monthlyRatings'), but as far as I can tell, these are just feel-good (or bad :P ) words for the Council to pat you on the back with.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Sneak Dog on November 17, 2023, 09:44:48 pm
I'm not certain, either, since I don't have nor plan to have a Github account and thus can't search code very well...

But as I understand it, every month every country evaluates your performance and falls into one of these four categories: happy, satisfied, dissatisfied, pact. Your overall score generally correlates with that category, but not always (alien infiltration, lots of alien missions there, no X-Com presence, the works). Once they're happy, they'll just randomly roll on that 5-20% wheel.

Although I saw general Council happyness threshold being at 500, not 2000 'rating', which seems to be more or less score. @Sneak Dog, where does your 2000 value come from?



There are also custom score values ('monthlyRatings'), but as far as I can tell, these are just feel-good (or bad :P ) words for the Council to pat you on the back with.

Yeah, this seems about right? It'd make sense given how simple a lot of these small mechanics in XCOM are. Apparently the 2k rating came from a post on a forum of just some random person on the internet. My bad.
Regardless, five bases with scientists or even seven by the end of 1998 seems ambitious. Though having such a couple of months later is suddenly reasonable, hah.

Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on November 17, 2023, 10:04:17 pm
The algorithm seems to be similar to what's described in the OXC wiki. See in particular how 'newFunding' is determined by RNG within certain limits:

https://github.com/MeridianOXC/OpenXcom/blob/oxce-plus/src/Savegame/Country.cpp#L181
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Juku121 on November 17, 2023, 11:18:41 pm
OXC wiki
What's an OpenXcom Wiki? Ufopedia has very little to do with OXC(E) as such, and the ruleset reference doesn't go into anu of this.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on November 18, 2023, 05:16:01 am
Notice first that it's a per-country increase, not overall.

So, the score is made of
```good = (xcomTotal / 10) + _activityXcom.back();```
Total score /10 + local score for this country (e.g. mission was there), or, conversely, an alien base / UFO flyby creates alien activity.

There also seems to be distinction between `negative score` per se and `alien score`. IIRC, any battlescape result, negative or positive, is x-com activity and penalty for ignoring a mission is alien activity. Kinda wondering which is worse, to ignore a mission or to get wrecked there.

Notice how
```if (RNG::generate(0, good) > bad)```
there's always a chance to get 0 and no funding increase.
And if bad ~ 100, good ~ 200 (~2k score), there's basically 50% chance to increase the funding.

So it's important have a lot of score relatively to `bad` to increase the chances of funding, and to keep mistakes (ignoring missions?) and thus `bad` low.

Thus funding increase `per country` is fixed 5-20% of old funding. But the funding increase overall, like I said, is effectively proportional to the score, sans corner cases. And the funding itself is exponential (granted you get that 5-20% of old funding), up to a cap. Which is how you reach those gajillions of money.

There also could be an argument about prioritizing bigger-funding countries...
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Juku121 on November 18, 2023, 11:08:01 am
Good analysis!

Although...
But the funding increase overall, like I said, is effectively proportional to the score, sans corner cases.
This is not really true in either the strict sense (proportional = constant ratio) nor the weak one ('strongly related').

First, since there are a lot of countries and only so many aliens/cultists/shady orgs to go around, alien activity is going to be zero or near zero for most of them. If you don't believe me, go and check a 1999 save for 'activityAlien'. You'll see a lot of zeroes.

And once you clear the 'good > bad + 30' threshold (300 score as a minimum, probably 500 to be safe), you're likely to get an increase from most of them, barring local score spikes.


Second, the score increase is far from proportional. If you have 2000 score and the aliens scored 100 in the country, that's 200 vs 105, a rougly 50% chance, as you said. If you increase your score to 4000, it's ~75% chance, a ~50% increase in funding for a 100% increase in score. Going to 8000 is 200% increase for ~75% better funding, 16k is 400% to 88%, and so on. These are pretty strongly diminishing returns, and that's one of the countries where score actually matters. For most of them, 1000 score would already make the funding increase a near -certainty (100 'good' vs a few points of 'bad').


TLDR: What matters more is not big score numbers (unless you use 'performanceBonusFactor'), but rather offsetting alien activity with your own.


Kinda wondering which is worse, to ignore a mission or to get wrecked there.
Ignoring the mission, since alien score is vastly worse for the country than generic negative score.

Incidentally, that also makes slander missions a real menace to your funding.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on November 18, 2023, 12:02:53 pm
Quote
And once you clear the 'good > bad + 30' threshold (300 score as a minimum, probably 500 to be safe), you're likely to get an increase from most of them, barring local score spikes.
No, because total alien activity is a thing.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Juku121 on November 18, 2023, 12:30:01 pm
Sure, it's not quite as good as I said, you're right.

But that still presupposes X-Com score is relatively close to alien score, in which case your overall score will suck (relative to all the action going on). As long as you have positive score, the threshold is better than your score indicates, since score is [X-Com activity] - [alien activity], but 'good' vs 'bad' is [X-Com activity]/10 - [alien activity]/20 + [local difference].

If your overall score is low, of course you're not going to get a big funding increase.


E.g. if you have 500 score, of which 1700 is yours and 1200 is the aliens' in a country with negligible activity, say, 10 alien and none X-Com, you get 'good' 170 vs 'bad' 70, a ~58% chance of an increase. And that's a kinda bad score overall, you're barely keeping X-Com's head above water.

If it's more like the average on your graph, ~700 or so, a more likely +500 score and local activity 0 would get you 120 vs 35, a ~70% chance of an increase. And I think a successful month is more like several thousands of positive score overall, so more of an 80-90% chance.

But your point is taken, I did forget about the roll vs 'bad'.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on November 18, 2023, 12:35:50 pm
Quote
Sure, but that presupposes X-Com score is relatively close to alien score, in which case your overall score will suck.
I wouldn't call 1-2k a "suck" score, but suit yourself.

You literally wrote previously that "500 is enough to keep most countries happy", but now turns out it is not. Which is my point.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Juku121 on November 18, 2023, 12:48:10 pm
It sucks in comparison to what's going on. If aliens are scoring 10k and you're doing 12k, it's not a situation that's well in hand. Edit: And if it's 3k score and the aliens are doing 1k, it's a good score and 'X-Com score is relatively close to alien score' is also false. /edit


Plus, '500 is enough to keep most countries happy' is still true, see the examples I edited in. It's just that 'most' isn't 'virtually everyone without local alien activity', but rather 'more than half of them'. Which is still 'most'. Edit2: And that holds for any amount score above 300. /edit2
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Xylon666Darkstar on November 18, 2023, 08:51:50 pm
Score good, get lots of money. ez
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Abyss on November 28, 2023, 10:39:26 am
Ok. I'm the one who was playing XCF on SH+ironman + Brutal AI from Xilmi. Later, as progress stucks (too much casualities) I shifted to pre-sh diff + ironman + BAI. Everything is doable, if you have enough patience and:
1) Do every key mission in rapid succession (e.g. catch and  whoever you need to catch with proposed measures). Get full-body armor -> Get cults asap -> aim promo III well before actual alien invasion.
2) Expand ASAP and get all possible scientists and training facilities for 50 (earlygame) to 150 (midgame) soldiers. Because later there would be no chance to battle-train soldiers without casualities. The most troublesome part of the game is middle-late armor gap vs early aliens, when your soldiers burn like fried chicken. 

For those, who play w/o BAI, SH difficulty is in better priority to any other difficulty, because each mission gives better score & loot, better stats boost and more potential prisoners. Not mentioning that Vanilla AI gives not that much of a push.

Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Akamashi on November 28, 2023, 02:14:24 pm
First of all I really need to say how much I love this mod! Such an awesome work - so much fun - so much appreciation! A friend and I are ... at least trying to ... play it on superhuman ironman. Sure, it is super hard - but that's what it's supposed to be. We do like competitions  ;) Played all of the old stuff again and again on highest difficulty without allowing ourselfes to save / reload. We started this mod some times again until we said: OK, now we've got it - and brought it quite far I guess. We're just allowing ourselfes to check new mission types for the "idea" (just take 2-3 turns, copy back, than we go "live").

But at our current state it feels like we're maybe too late in the tech-tree (what I can't believe) or the game concept just ... is a bit lagging.

First of all we're facing many UFOs we don't have ANY chance to intercept with our helis and one Arrow. We just wait for them to land, start the mission and almost every time immediatelly take of, since our poor weapons too have NO chance against thoes ... one eyed dudes (don't get their name right now). It feels a bit desperate ... but yeah, aliens are attacking the earth! We will get better weapons, it might be desperate in the beginning ... so ... cool for me. Just not having any chance to intercept them is a bit hard (meaning too hard  ::) )

Second problem are the Hybrid bases. Protected by UFOs we first need to trigger and flee. Still OK for me. But my main point of criticism is the base mission than. We are starting in the middle of many strongly armed soldiers. There is no chance AT ALL to even leave the starting point. Everywhere way too many opponents right next to us with full TU just waiting for a reaction shot. And even attacking them the next turn is suicide. We need our TUs for reaction shot. So the best is to just stay on the walls in the lading room, skipping turn by turn hoping every opponent gets killed by reaction not being able to shoot our soldiers. It actually works most of the time. But that really doesn't feel like gaming any more. Am I mistaken here? Are we maybe doing something completely wrong? If we were starting a bit offside we could capture rooms and have a nice fight with the Hybrids. But right now it just feels like a messy game design (so sorry for saying that!  :-X). And I really don't see any chance in leaving the room. Like ... totally no chance  :'(


I'm shocked. I'm playing at the difficulty level of superhuman ironman. Before that, I played on the veteran Ironman, and I successfully completed it without making a single download of the game. I play without perfectionism. There's nothing to shoot down UFOs with - I don't shoot them down. There's nothing to kill thick armored enemies with - I avoid them. Thus, I am already smoothly entering the late stage of the game. Now I have the best weapons and armor, but there is no avenger yet, and I have not yet caught the commander of the ethereal in order to move on to the final missions.

Why did I decide to write this? I was hurt by the complaint about the hybrid headquarters. This mission has always been perceived by me as one of the key ones for the transition from a beggarly state to a state where you stop counting money. It is very light even with armor and armament 2 promo. You just need to reenter a convenient resp, and shoot the maximum of the nearest enemies with a resp. It can take 50+ moves. But it's not scary.

Really difficult missions, this is the headquarters of a syndicate or an alien colony with a mixed composition. I passed the syndicate headquarters only on the third attempt (I lost 2 full aircrafts of veteran fighters), and only with the help of psi control. And I've been putting up with two mixed colonies for a year and a half in the game. Although I could beat them at the current level, I suspect that my losses will be unforgivable. Both colonies have the same composition: cry-mut-gaze-ethe-sectop + 1 alpha cryssalid.

And now I got spartanism, and the game turned into an easy walk. It's pointless to make things easier.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Akamashi on November 28, 2023, 02:24:08 pm
Regarding intercepting. You don't need to do any intercepting before 1999. By that time you should have at least researched RAVEN and THUNDERSTORM, even if you haven't wanted to use the alloys to build one. If you don't, you're way behind the curve. It sounds like you're research is lagging badly. Remember, you'll need to have multiple bases with science labs, intel, and bio labs (35 researchers each) within a year or so, and improved labs on multiple bases before 1999. So, your goal should be at least 150-200 scientists within 18 or 24 months.

These requirements are infinitely overstated. I didn't hit anyone until 2000. And then no one is stronger than small UFOs for another year. It's nothing at all. The same goes for scientists. Before 2001, I had 35+25+25 scientists. And they were more than enough. In the part that I lazily play at work, there are even fewer scientists there. You can comfortably play three bases with everything you need.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Akamashi on November 28, 2023, 02:36:08 pm
350 scientists?! In the early game? Are you serious?! 
Don't listen to stupid advice. I am already close to the final of the game, I have recently become 75+90+10+10 scientists. And even so, I use 90% of their resources to study all kinds of shit. And so by 1999 I had 35+25+10 scientists. And then the whole game 35+25+10+10 . And I didn't feel any discomfort. This is a lot to explore the key techs and engineers of the aliens. Even if you have 9999999 scientists, it will make little sense, because they will have to study poop 95% of their time. And there will be no stopper for progress, since in addition to science, you also need to conquer resources and train fighters. This is usually the anchor, not the science.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on December 04, 2023, 03:19:27 pm
If you want to learn you may want to take a look at this VET/IM youtube series (which was mentioned elsewhere):

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE9um8-d4SFK0E1qzEpMhu2GwfAucJGKP

I've certainly learned dozens of new nuggets of tips, shortcuts etc. For example, a starting location somewhere around India is interesting, as it allows Helicopter access essentially everywhere except the Americas (and maybe NZ), and you get Americas covered by placing a second base in middle americas (to where you can fly-transfer, hopefully this also works with osprey).

However, to me, the playstyle is in many cases very courageous and/or risky and I'd advise more caution. Such as dancing around zombies requires very precise knowledge of how much TUs they have and need to attack. But I suppose this can work with very intimate knowledge of the game. I would definitely have aborted many the missions earlier just to be on the safe side. Based on my experiences - and I just restarted another SH/IM game, here are a few key things I'd suggest doing in a little bit different manner:
 - don't let any events despawn (this requires some knowledge of the range of durations for each spawn). Despawning always causes penalties, and at least in one month a major negative score. OTOH, many environmental events have no abort penalty, and abort penalty is always less than the despawn penalty. So I'd strongly suggest having one car, later private car, which can be used to get to all those far-away missions you can't get to in time otherwise. You can even deal with some missions with a team of two agents.
 - go into cult missions during the dark, and find a spot nearby that's in the dark or has cover, and throw out flares as needed. Going by daytime risks reaction shots, which causes wounding and casualties. (With this tactic, it is also more viable to delay researching kevlar vests a bit.) Using smoke is less effective early-game strategy because it also impairs your own visibility a lot (and you get mechanisms to work around these such as scout drones and indirect weapons like grenades only a little bit later). This is all the more important the more challenging the missions get. To minimize risks, also apply this tactic to the very first cult apprehension events, especially if you play SH and thus there are 4 enemies rather than 2 as in VET. You can also manage missions with minimal crew if you go in the dark and get a decent spawn (for example, you could be able deal with Safe Houses with just two agents if you get decent luck).
 - ramp up the research capacity faster (for example, so that you can get all the fancy new stuff earlier - and so making the rest of the game easier).
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on December 04, 2023, 06:51:53 pm
I'm a bit bored with veteran, so there's proper IM/SH run in the workings now (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE9um8-d4SFITbv_YNSNcAy6Ca5abQD2J).

Quote
However, to me, the playstyle is in many cases very courageous and/or risky and I'd advise more caution.
Thank you. I try to make a point of being stupidly courageous, when I can afford it. Rookies are just 30$k per unit, after all.

I don't recommend sweating & minmaxing over early game (jan-mar) at all.
Cult progress timing advantages from doing so are minimal. However, getting "real" sci lab & osprey fast is important. But these may just need some RNG to spawn corresponding missions & get good spawn in time.

Having that in mind.

Quote
To minimize risks, also apply this tactic to the very first cult apprehension events, especially if you play SH and thus there are 4 enemies rather than 2 as in VET.
Sadly, doesn't seem to work very well in apprehensions, at least for me. You often spawn surrounded by lights. And that's besides the times you stare directly at a shotgun.
You often don't see mooks and have no idea where they can come from. You may retreat into a building only to find a mook there and get shot. And the mission may turn into a bughunt instead of 2 minutes of pihf-pahf at day. Getting night owl is kinda nice, but, I won't bet on those rookies surviving into bio-ex immortality yet.
I feel that best chances are - go at day, check mooks weapons, retreat if too many are shooty (as opposed to melee) and no good cover.

The chances of one-shotting a shotgun mook turn 1 with your small shotty - are meh, pump shotty - mid (lower dmg, but better accuracy),  shotty shotty - fairly decent. I really like researching non-std & shotty first. Single kevlar can be got from researching or processing captured madman (granted RNG blesses you and you get the mission).

Also don't research Abducted Farmer until you really want to. You'll get less points from capturing those onwards. Should potentially work with other captures, but you're kinda forced to research those.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on December 04, 2023, 07:51:11 pm
I'm a bit bored with veteran, so there's proper IM/SH run in the workings now (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE9um8-d4SFITbv_YNSNcAy6Ca5abQD2J).

Thanks, I'll be interested in checking it out.

Quote
The chances of one-shotting a shotgun mook turn 1 with your small shotty - are meh, pump shotty - mid (lower dmg, but better accuracy),  shotty shotty - fairly decent. I really like researching non-std & shotty first. Single kevlar can be got from researching or processing captured madman (granted RNG blesses you and you get the mission).

Another interesting thing in your game was your use of small shotties. I suppose they are useful in really close quarters, can fit on the belt and are not too weighty. I have used mostly regular or especially double-barrel shotguns myself (especially as an equip-weapon which can be dropped if there are no close quarters enemies in turn 1). Especially double-barrel has ridiculously good accuracy with aimed shot (best of all the weapons?) and can kill easily from over 10 squares and hit a target from a ridiculous 20+ squares (and if you want a really deadly close-quarters shotty, sawed-off is the best in early game). But I guess this could also depend a lot on your style. You're rotating even really weak rookies in many missions, and then you maybe need to use other tactics compared that can work with lower accuracy and strength compared to when you use more experienced troops.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on December 06, 2023, 06:36:24 am
A nice tip from SL on the stream: avoid researching 'abducted farmer' for as long as you can. They give good score (28 base value = 56 when captured non-researched) and give about 170 points per mission (with SH) if you haven't researched them. If you have, you get only roughly 60 points per mission.

That made me wonder if there are any other such things to look for. Many other human enemies must be researched to progress the game, so I'm not sure if there are other important ones to look for. I suppose you don't get extra points for killing unresearched enemy units.

As far as I know, you don't get mission points for recovering human items on the battlefield, so it makes no impact on mission score whether you have researched those or not. In vanilla games, all the alien artifacts (including weapons) have the same property, giving double(?) points if you haven't researched them yet, so some people intentionally avoid researching those that they don't need or need yet. In XCF I think this applies to alien components, but I was unable find scores for alien weapons.

Speaking of farmers, in stream part 6 (at 45 mins) I noticed for the first time equipping the squad with only killing weapons and pre-primed grenades when going for a crop circles mission, I suppose in anticipation of MIBs. MIBs start appearing in crop circles in month 6, although it's still much more likely not to encounter them. I hadn't paid much attention to this before, but it seems cattle mutilation missions never have nasty surprires, while crop circles may also have zombies and mibs, so I guess your preparation tactic might be different.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Juku121 on December 06, 2023, 10:11:56 am
A nice tip from SL on the stream: avoid researching 'abducted farmer' for as long as you can. They give good score (28 base value = 56 when captured non-researched) and give about 170 points per mission (with SH) if you haven't researched them.
Personally, I use 'giveScoreAlsoForResearchedArtifacts: true' to avoid such perverse incentives. And while X-Com might have researched them, the loot is still priceless alien artifacts to the average Council member.

I suppose you don't get extra points for killing unresearched enemy units.
Nope.

In vanilla games, all the alien artifacts (including weapons) have the same property, giving double(?) points if you haven't researched them yet, so some people intentionally avoid researching those that they don't need or need yet. In XCF I think this applies to alien components, but I was unable find scores for alien weapons.
'recoveryPoints' for items/corpses. You don't get double score, you either get the listed score or nothing.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on December 06, 2023, 10:16:53 am
Quote
Speaking of farmers, in stream part 6 (at 45 mins) I noticed for the first time equipping the squad with only killing weapons and pre-primed grenades when going for a crop circles mission, I suppose in anticipation of MIBs. MIBs start appearing in crop circles in month 6, although it's still much more likely not to encounter them. I hadn't paid much attention to this before, but it seems cattle mutilation missions never have nasty surprires, while crop circles may also have zombies and mibs, so I guess your preparation tactic might be different.
Yes, no surprises on Cattle. As for MiBs, they have specific theme that plays in the briefing (space rangers theme), so you can equip accordingly.
There's also "surprise" MiB environmental alert. Besides the theme, even the background picture is different for it - you can check it in details beforehand, before even flying there.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Marrik on December 06, 2023, 05:53:33 pm
Believe it or not, I've actually ONLY ever played this mod on SH. Is there an AI downgrade if I play on lower difficulties?
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Juku121 on December 06, 2023, 08:44:38 pm
A bit (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Ruleset_Reference_Nightly_(OpenXcom)#Difficulty_Settings). Not as big an impact on the Battlescape as all the extra enemies with higher stats that come with SH, IMO.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on December 11, 2023, 06:49:22 pm
I had missed the usefulness of X-Com rats until I saw SL's streams. Superior night vision, but even more importantly, excellent heat vision makes them invaluable, even better than scout drones. Which is why you can delay getting scout drones (researching them is rather costly and require building a workshop as well).

OXCE 7.9.17 onwards the effects of smoke stack with other visibility features. This means that in smoke and darkness, the enemies might not spot you unless they are a square or two away (this also applies to you). Enter the rats. Because they have so good heat vision, they can see through smoke without problems. (OTOH, at this point of the game, essentially no enemy units have heat vision, so you can get an extra edge.) So you can hide your troops in smoke and the enemies will never find you, but you can spot them with rats (and/or drones, or dogs mainly with their scanner).

This is also a winner strategy to dealing with BL assassins without casualties. If you go out during night and put out some smoke, they will never find you, just wander around lost in the smoke near you. Just dealt with BL forward base SH/IM (with 9 assassins) without no casualties and only one dog taking a wound.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Juku121 on December 12, 2023, 10:03:25 am
Aren't bats even better for that? Superiour night and infravision, compared to rats?

What the rats have going for them is even better camouflage, anti-camo and short-range psi vision.

Granted, I never understood how a rat hugging the ground (plus trash cans, bushes and tall grass) can see farther than a human...
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on December 12, 2023, 10:33:59 am
The main benefit of rats over bats is you typically get rats very early and it is easier to capture them. It might be a while until you have a shadowbat mission and capturing them alive could also be trickier as they are likely to die (or get overstunned) even with a shot of blunt ammo.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Juku121 on December 12, 2023, 10:53:48 am
Blunt rounds? These can kill/overstun even healthy humans. Every time I even touch a Shadowbat, the mission turns into veterinary training...😢
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on December 12, 2023, 11:32:31 am
Well, yes, bats are awesome in open areas. Dagon HQ maybe? Probably even worth sacrificing some rookies. But they're very tricky to capture. I got just 2 in both Vet and SH runs from one encounter each, mindlessly shooting with batons. And I don't have high hopes for their survival in the battle. Meanwhile - 20+ rats from 3-4 encounters doing same thing.  Anyway, since then I found that bats can be safely KO'd by extinguisher blast or just flying through smoke, so... could have more.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Juku121 on December 12, 2023, 11:56:33 am
Bats are even more awesome at chokepoints, like single doors, due to their incredible melee dodge and CQB. But the moment someone can shoot at them unimpeded, they're toast.

Uh, I thought smoke and fire only affect you if you stop? Although covering yourself in smoke and wielding fire extinguishers sounds interesting... like some sort of beebatkeeper squad? :D That reminds me, the old UFO:ET game actually had beekeeper armour, although no real bees, unlike our Swarmids.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on December 12, 2023, 12:07:14 pm
Quote
Bats are even more awesome at chokepoints, like single doors, due to their incredible melee dodge and CQB. But the moment someone can shoot at them unimpeded, they're toast.
Uhh...maybe if you have a dozen or so of these, then it would make sense to risk them like this. I guess I'll try placing some rats at chokes, they seem not that far off with dodge. And even doges manage to out-doge in CQC many weirdos most of the time.
Quote
Uh, I thought smoke and fire only affect you if you stop?
Yes, of course. I do mean that they need stop in smoke.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on December 12, 2023, 03:18:31 pm
Oh yeah, I forgot another huge selling point for rats that I had missed. They have psiVision 3 which means they are invaluable in multilevel missions. I will never go to Exalt HQ without one now. (Usually those have been 40+ turn slogs and eventually bughunts.) Also applicable to lesser degree with other multilevel missions (syndicate CEO capture coming to mind immediately, though at that point you already have a hybrid with less efficient psiVision).
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on December 18, 2023, 12:32:33 pm
Just got to Jan 99 in SH/IM run. 13.5$m income, 4.5 bases, 143 scientists. Tried somewhat hard, but quite far from perfect run. So psavola's estimate of 200 scientists by mid 99 seems to be on point.
That being said, "lazy" VET/IM run had 8.7$m income, 4.5 Bases, 70 scientists at this point, and still felt like a cakewalk, so... Far, far, far "worse" campaigns are winnable. There's plenty opportunities to become OP:
1) Tanks.
2) Power suits from captured MiB heavy troopers. Also one from captured Gillman Hero at undersea city. Edit: In 3.2 version Hero has just Power Armor now. Well, unless Solar changes it again.
3) Even rookies in synthsuits are very formidable - get synthmuscles from Osiron crates, alien surgery from somewhere, I got it from an event...
4) PSI. Can get from Sectoid Leader (e.g. one at Gertrude) or Dr. Alpha or Alpha Werecat & Alpha Werewold (need both).
Getting any of these drastically improves combat.

Also I finally got some bats and they are just insane in smoke battles. Definitely must have.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Abyss on December 18, 2023, 05:53:47 pm
2) Power suits from captured MiB heavy troopers. Also one from captured Gillman Hero at undersea city.
BTW how do you capture heavy troopers? The most painless way?
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on December 18, 2023, 06:02:00 pm
BTW how do you capture heavy troopers? The most painless way?

Do at least a few missions from the ghost arc. Katapeltes Spiritus one-shots (actually triple shot) to stun them, sometimes if you have to shoot twice, you may end up killing them. Some other ghost arc weapons may also work, but are significantly less effective (like hadriex gun).

Capturing or killing heavy troopers is very easy when equipped with the right ghost arc weapons. If you want to kill them instead, a good PST agent can one-shot them with Thanatonautian Manus.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on December 18, 2023, 06:35:04 pm
Quote
BTW how do you capture heavy troopers? The most painless way?
EMP
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on December 21, 2023, 02:55:46 pm
Just got to Jan 99 in SH/IM run. 13.5$m income, 4.5 bases, 143 scientists. Tried somewhat hard, but quite far from perfect run. So psavola's estimate of 200 scientists by mid 99 seems to be on point.

A few observations and questions.

I think you should also be able to get much more than 13.5§m in Jan 99. You seem to skip or abort a large number of missions (even 1/3 or 1/2), even those that could be easily doable without much risks but might be somewhat annoying and/or boring (for example, cyberweb lairs, heists, hybrid farms, etc.). I suppose your main goal has been to just get sufficient score (not maximal score) and avoid sloggish missions. (Personally, I find e.g. cyberweb lairs very easy and also great for training melee; the farms are also very easy and provide great material for reseach - easier by far than other hybrid missions, because none of the enemy units is a 'sniper'.)

If I'd have to pick the sneakiest tricks for gaining XP I've learned it would be barking, popping/dropping/throwing smoke at unconscious enemy units. Putting up smoke is particularly sneaky but logical, because smoke in XCF causes in principle CHOKE damage (in contrast to vanilla where it would be useless I think).

If I'd have to pick one thing I still haven't figured out is how you in mission debriering screen can move on to another bases (for example, if you try to move prisoners there but the containment is already full, so you switch there to clean it up for transfer). I haven't found documentation for this. Or is this also one of your own customizations, like many of the sorting hotkeys appear to be.

Based on my experience of a couple of IM(ish) campaigns, one of the most annoying and micromanaging parts of SH/IM is keeping all the bases prepared for enemy retaliation (after you've pissed off the syndicate). You get a scripted Syndicate retaliation (unless you shoot it down) at some point [I haven't yet got to the point in videos how you dealt with this, I just skimmed the descriptions and I suppose you shot down the scarab, because the base defense would have been a lengthier thing], later you're bound to trigger alien retaliation [you already had one in the latest vids; if it would have been a trickier one than floaters you might have been in trouble, say sectoids with PSI and cyberdiscs], and in the end you get scripted ethereal retaliation missions. Having all the crew (and/or rotating them in and out) and equipment everywhere is seems like a PITA. But I suppose this cannot really be avoided.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on December 21, 2023, 04:50:39 pm
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I think you should also be able to get much more than 13.5§m in Jan 99.
Probably not by much. I may have had a couple of meh early months, but otherwise I think it was good. So roughly, I may have lost 1-2 months of good funding increases. Worth checking the saves, I guess.

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You seem to skip or abort a large number of missions (even 1/3 or 1/2), even those that could be easily doable without much risks but might be somewhat annoying and/or boring
I actually think that I'm doing too many missions. Training forty agents is too much, 20 + base guards should be plenty. And if you have nobody to train doing research-less missions feels unnecessary.

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Personally, I find e.g. cyberweb lairs very easy and also great for training melee;
Depends on gear. Cyber? Go nuts. Otherwise, there are some layouts where robots camp above and refuse to come down, can fry your vested agents like nothing. Also closed terrain shenanigans - you can punch it out with better armors, but not with vests, IIRC. Can be annoying, and there's plenty of tedium going forward.

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the farms are also very easy and provide great material for reseach - easier by far than other hybrid missions, because none of the enemy units is a 'sniper'.
I have bad flashbacks about dealing with hybrids. The drones can be a bit annoying, unless you're running cyber. Small convoys (new thing?) are easier, no drones. And they have both workers and soldiers. Medium convoys have rocketeers, but they are fairly important captures, I think.

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because smoke in XCF causes in principle CHOKE damage (in contrast to vanilla where it would be useless I think).
Smoke blast itself deals no choke damage, you're awarded with exp just for hit. Even more so, for each hit in the area? I think the "sneakiest" one is scanner morale loss. It leads to panic check, trains bravery and awards Tu/Hp stat gain. Mostly for critters, though.

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If I'd have to pick one thing I still haven't figured out is how you in mission debriering screen can move on to another bases
Yep, that's custom thing. I intend to share these sometime.

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I suppose you shot down the scarab, because the base defense would have been a lengthier thing
Shot down like 4 or 5 syndicate transports. I guess that was it.

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Having all the crew (and/or rotating them in and out) and equipment everywhere is seems like a PITA. But I suppose this cannot really be avoided.
Eh, all the micromanaging seems to be less than one medium-sized battle, so no bother. Also, one trick I devised is to save defense loadout as craft loadout, then buy a car and load the load out - the game will offer to buy missing stuff. Manufactured equipment is more troublesome, though - have to load car at manufacturing base and transfer it with all the equipment to target base. True, equipment needs updating over time. But small updates shouldn't feel too annoying.
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on January 08, 2024, 11:21:02 am
I think you should also be able to get much more than 13.5§m in Jan 99. You seem to skip or abort a large number of missions (even 1/3 or 1/2), even those that could be easily doable without much risks but might be somewhat annoying and/or boring (for example, cyberweb lairs, heists, hybrid farms, etc.). I

Getting back to this. In my SH(IMish) campaign, I got to 17.0§m in the 98/99 change report. Except from the early game where you have to flee a lot, I did almost all missions and the monthly scores were great, for the last year usually around 10K. So I suppose ~17M is rather close to the maximum funding you can have at that point. I had to wait almost half a year for Kitsune to appear, but otherwise it has been a rather smooth ride. Killed off syndicate in Nov 1998, obtained infernalism in Oct 1998, have done underwater city twice and tasoth factory three times, etc. Haven't finished cyberweb battleship, waiting for laser sniper rifles.

Apparently I have 42+4x35 = 182 scientists at this point. I could have pushed for a bit more, but I didn't get any military downed UFO -missions and I just got the first live alien a month ago. So the "alien research" has been stalling a bit, and there wasn't really pressing need to research more. At this point I have interrogated all the topics the cultists, hybrids  and syndicate can offer and I have 1 topic left in MIB enforcer/executor/pilot research tree. So a lot of the research - for the lack of better subjects - has went into clearing those getOneFree topics.

I had completely overlooked CHOKE and EMP as damage types and learned a lot from SL streams. Those two deal with almost everything. For humans and many aliens, you could spam Tactical Grenade Launchers equipped with gas ammo (and with well-placed shots you can also get captures) - the area effect is so big that you don't need or even want to hit directly (avoid sniper/spotter). As for EMP, the resistances and effectivess had deceived me - the most important thing is the armor ineffectivess, and even against those mechanical units  that take only (for example) 40% damage it can be crucial. Apparently EMP is also the trivial way to capture live sectopods (the earliest off MIBs), which can be a major boon in the game.

By the way, sonic weapons are also great against ghosts due to the concussive damage type (and many others that have some resistance to kinetic). If you intend to grind the underwater arc multiple times for money and power armors, sonic blasta rifle likely provides best tradeoffs (good availability, good range and TU/dmg tradeoff). The only downside as a backup weapon is that it's not a 1x2 weapon, but for that you can get sonic shotgun or additionally a pistol.


Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: Stone Lake on January 08, 2024, 04:33:06 pm
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So the "alien research" has been stalling a bit, and there wasn't really pressing need to research more.
Well yes, that's the important part - you miss the aliens / alien multitool / welder and the research stalls, with amount of scientists being irrelevant. Or get them, but have no trit to build anything properly (albeit Gertrude gifts you a hefty chunk). Same thing can happen for Promo 2 / lab.

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Killed off syndicate in Nov 1998, obtained infernalism in Oct 1998
That's some incredible timings. In particular, for Infernalism - I always get it late for some reason. So...+20 TUs / Melee, and without the suit. Is that more or less OP than Synthsuit?  ::) And you're step away from Spartanism, which is twice as powerful.
Hope you'll have better timings than me for Avenger, too (:

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have done underwater city twice and tasoth factory three times
Tasoth factory has so many power sources. Easy way to get resources needed for Advanced Lab.

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Apparently EMP is also the trivial way to capture live sectopods (the earliest off MIBs), which can be a major boon in the game.
There's nothing trivial about outplaying the sectopods, as they can shrug off mines sometimes. But yeah, makes it easier. Also most of the things sectopods do for you can be provided with just tanks, except thermal vision...
Title: Re: Ok so ... How is superhuman to be played?
Post by: psavola on March 09, 2024, 01:33:28 pm
Replayed a SH IM campaign up to a point (got bored in June 1999 because I had already done almost everything except the ethereal arc and had a dozen psionics with PST/PSK 95+/95+ to deal with any real threats in any mission), this time with no ironman cheesing at at all (no program restarts). Essentially the same outcome as before.

A few further thoughts how you can streamline SH play - obviously you could instead try additional handicaps to make it more difficult as well:

1 . Capture and train rats, and eventually shadowbats, to act as your recon. Especially with IM, you will want to use smoke and/or darkness and these will be essential and help the game tremendously. Rats are usually no problem at all (eventually you have an overflow of them), but capturing shadowbats can be tricky and you may need to use them only sparingly in the most important missions only, to avoid losing your precious batties by stupid accidents.

2. Go for cover: surfers early (as also advocated by Stone Lake). This opens up the osiron missions which give useful information, very useful early-game weapons and osiron boxes, which with luck give you extremely useful items. The beach business missions can be quite dangerous without dogs, so I usually wait until I have some. Cover: surfers also opens a path to get started on the underwater arc.

3. try to get started with psionics as early as you can. The three early-game ways to get it is sectoid leader (from Gertrud Ellison mission), Dr. Alpha (animal psionics) or capturing normal and then alpha werewolves and werecats (RNG-dependent). In my last two games, animal psionics through Dr. Alpha was the earliest and easiest path (you can get it already after Promo II and the mission is relatively straightforward even if finding the last critters in the maze is always a PITA). Once you start training the psionics (especially hybrid psionics), there is nothing stopping the game. If you don't get lucky with hybrid missions and getting access to hybrid recruitment, this takes some time with humans, so the more time you have the better. Especially after you have obtained Helix Psion, you can MC essentially all the enemies with ease (with multiple PSK/PSK 95+/95+ psionics).

4. Let Dagon build manor(s) and let them be until one develops into tier 2, then deal with them. This ensures you can get early access to EMP which can be very useful down the road.

5. Get started with the underwater arc soon. Abyssal artifact delivery might be the earliest and easiest way to get started first with researching the deep one corprse, then going for alien containment, and finally a capture. Underwater arc provides many useful things.
 * Underwater arc will eventually provide you with Power Armors, captured from Gillman Hero, which will turn the game. Repeated Undersea city and Tasoth Factory missions will also diminish you money issues significantly.
 * One of the biggest early-game benefits are aqua plastics and plastic aqua-armor, which is very useful also on overground missions (good protections except from bullets). Plastic aqua-suit also gives you 0% damage from choke which allows you to spam gas grenades, TAC+gas, etc. everywhere without damaging your main units. The aqua-suit is also eventually essential for Dimension X.

6. Kill off Black Lotus first (if the RNG is favorable) because it is by far IMO easiest and if you have taken care of other Promo III prerequisites already, the rest will be much smoother after Promo III. The avatar capture is easy from the special mission (only Red Dawn and BL have extra missions to get the commander) and the HQ is easy as long as you have enough dogs and rats. It may be profitable to build your initial base in Asia so that both the root of all evil and BL HQ missions will be within OSPREY range.

7. Get started with the ghost arc as soon as you can (maybe wait until armored vests + shields). This provides you with PSI weapons which are incredibly useful for capturing heavily armored enemies (like MIB heavies and the gillman hero) and stealing their armors. If you kill them you don't get the armor. Manus can be very good for killing enemies when you don't care about the armor anymore.

8. Once you're strong enough (in 1998) research and trigger off MIBs. MIB missions give you lots of loot: lots of tritanium, very good lasers (so you don't need to bother with alien laser junk; also useful in ghost missions) and in stealth bomber phase you can capture the heavies (using EMP or ghost arc weapons) and obtain their power suits.

9. For the same reason as 3, you should start the hybrid path as early as you can, like in early 1998, (to get access to hybrid recruitment and thus strong psionics). I have always gotten hybrid missions started by capturing the hybrid envoy from Red Dawn HQ but you can get there through Exalt HQ brainer as well. Nowaways you could probably get lucky through Den of Villainy missions as well (requiring basics from the Cult of Apocalypse).