OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: Dioxine on May 04, 2016, 04:58:32 pm
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An upcoming addition to the early game will be the ability to build one of 5 Bonaventura variants, each with a special weapon to boot. You will still only ever have a single craft of this type, but now you will be able to choose which one.
The discussion is open to suggest stat changes, map changes and special abilities. I will lay down the basics below:
- Bonaventura (green)
No changes. Special Weapon: Charger Laser. The highest troop capacity variant (others will have 12-14 troops).
- El Fuego (red)
Assault-oriented craft. Special Weapon: Magma Cannon. Will have a bonus to weapon accuracy and highest speed of all.
- Fortuna (blue)
Recon-oriented craft. Special Weapon: ???. Fast, some dodge, very good radar, intended to be ideal for the 'go after landed ships only' strategy. Loses some weapons and armor but it translates into a good mileage and extended flight time.
- Metallo (black)
Tanking-oriented craft. Very tough and with improved repair rate. On the ground, it will be a bunker as well. Special Weapon: Sniper Cannon (best ROF in Cautious mode)
- Dorado (golden)
The swaggiest of them all. Not that good but spawns gold bars on each touchdown! Special weapon: Bling Cannon (stong heavy weapon, but needs gold for ammo).
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Metallo = Doors 8)
Maybe add gravlifts to one version.
The Fortuna should maybe have a cloaking device only, no weapon at all.
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Okay my thoughts one by one.
Bonny: Larger capacity means very little without knowing auxiliary unit capacity. 12-14 is usually more then sufficient for early play. Better for pogroms where you need the bodies. I like doing early pogroms for the gear boost if it rolls a manageable faction. Charger laser is cost efficient but lackluster gun as a single mount, lack damage potential to even kill smallest craft. 5/10
El fuego: High speed potentially opens up the target pool but not by alot if the cannon is short range. Alot of the lack of airpower on the current bonny is that is forced to tank so much on the way in severely risking the craft. IF the cannon is comparable to say naval gun it's a decent craft. ?/10 need to see the gun.
Fortuna: Better mileage, better endurance, and fast. Yes please a huge fraction of the neat stuff comes from following landings. This could have no guns and i would be fine with it. Also landings are the second best opportunity to bootstrap early play. 8/10
Metallo: A good long range gun on a hardy craft is ideal for getting into the mid game in the air. Early interceptors pack immense damage but are made of wet newspaper. Having something that can front line prior to the kraken(which suffers from poor gun slots) Could be a game changer. Corner case(imo) ground advantage. 7/10
Dorado: :o :o :o :o :o :o abuse potential so very high. Unless you absolutely force use of the gun in some way. 1/10 or 10/10 depending on implementation.
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Nice! They all sound interesting.
I'd give the sniper cannon to the Fortuna instead of the Metallo though. To me, hiding and ambushing go well with snipers. It being blue works: You hide in the sky, follow your target and take it out from afar if it doesn't land like you hoped.
Then for the Metallo, a HMG like gun, turning it into a flying pillbox. Would be cool to have semi-obstructed doors (ie doors where there's also a half-wall, making them windows) so you can open them and shoot out from various angles. Making it the perfect craft to land against strong opposition as you can sit in your fortress and shoot stuff.
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any walled structure that can take a few shots is a fortress if managed properly in this game. With the sentry turret in the game there is very little you can't land against.
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Well, you also need to be able to shoot back. I haven't tried the sentry gun yet, but if it is tanky enough to handle the back hatch, that could make quite a difference. But still, you either have to jump down the hatch, which means you can't get back in, or pop your head out of the roof, which might work, but tends to get you headshot by reaction fire. That's why I was suggesting firing points.
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I would say it all depends on what other craft are available early on. Right now the bonny is your best troop transport in the early game so I would always go with the highest capacity there. Hunter-killers are available soon enough to do interceptions and they have decent radar. For tougher shippings you need multiple attack craft anyway so if one of them is a little bit better that won't make much difference. Patroling with the bonny for radar might not be the best idea because of expansive fuel. Depends on mileage though, but that would have to be really good to be feasible. But then again pigeons are cheap enough.
The metallo might be interesting because right now the bonny is your early game lead attack craft because it can take the most damage. If it's worth it depends on how much troop capacity you have to sacrifice.
As much of these things depends on air combat, it also depends on what air combat you need to do. If only attacking landed craft is the best early game strategy anyway, better interception power is a moot point. And better radar usefulness depends on how difficult it is to find landed ships. Right now I find it not that difficult.
I would rate troop capacity and battlescape layout as the most game changing aspects.
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In my estimation having an air tank early really would open up the target list immensely. The main point is the repair speed. The current bonny is actually a decent tank but with no repair bonus it takes a very long time to be ready for another go during which you may lose a rich target simply for not having the hp to fight. Having something with more up time would really step up the potential pace of a game.
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Would be cool to have semi-obstructed doors (ie doors where there's also a half-wall, making them windows) so you can open them and shoot out from various angles. Making it the perfect craft to land against strong opposition as you can sit in your fortress and shoot stuff.
this^
Legionof1's writing about the sentry gun made me curious how they perform on a craft/tac mission. I have to admit until now i only kept them at the base in case of a crackdown...
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Do they even spawn somewhere useful? I picture mine would spawn behind doors or something, and be totally useless unless some idiotic invader happened to stumble in.
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Experiment god damn it! :) Not all crafts have doors.
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haha yeah.. for a scientist, I am oddly reluctant to experiment...
But I meant for base defenses, not in tac missions. I just remember my vanilla HWP spawning in rooms with big doors, which meant they wouldn't be all that useful if they can't move. Base defense is the only place I really consider combat HWPs, as they don't take the place of soldiers.
I generally value soldiers over HWP for general tactical missions, especially in Piratez where gals have so much potential. The only exception being scouts (since they die a lot, and parrots are crazy good) and heavy tanks that can move up and soak enemy fire. The sentry is neither so I haven't tried it. I have a pretty set playstyle that works well for me.
I wish I could make a video so you can say which Legion I'd fit in ;)
Back on the actual topic: Any chance of a Bonny-variant that can take missiles? That would be a fair difference as well. Maybe a high tech, low armor variant for the brainer oriented gameplay?
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Oh no, believe it or not, for a moment I completely forgot that there are doors in bases, too. Oops ::) ;D
I hope the sentries spawn in a good location... lol :o
Back to the topic: If goldbars can be spawned: Can (unrecoverable) sentry turrets also be spawned? Imagine a Bonny layout with a fixed turret in a tac mission!
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That'd be cool! Would fit well for a missile Bonny ;)
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Definitely one of these variants will carry missiles, not sure which yet (El Fuego will likely have 3x heavy setup, Fortuna very little in the way of weapons, Bonaventura unchanged, other remain an unknown).
As for spawning the turrets... well I could do it by the way of a nasty hack only. As a weapon which looks like a turret when in battlescape, and can be picked up and fired. Extreme weight would disallow moving and firing. But it's not a very clean solution, to say the least.
As for using sentries in Hideout Defense, they were never intended as such :)
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Sentry in hide out defense actually can bite you in the ass quite a bit. Since it will spawn like any other 1x1 unit it can turn up all over and can block in the gals in the barracks who then have to shoot/smash there way out around it.
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Sentry in hide out defense actually can bite you in the ass quite a bit. Since it will spawn like any other 1x1 unit it can turn up all over and can block in the gals in the barracks who then have to shoot/smash there way out around it.
Thanks for the warning!
One more idea for a special Bonaventura layout: What about a variant with a big (let's say 3 small or 2 big) HWP loadout?
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Sounds really cool. Here are my thoughts.
- I would want to be able to see the battlescape layout/deployment before choosing any of them. Would this be represented in game? Would be ideal if I didn't need to alt/tab to a browser for the ufopaedia.
- Would you be able to mod an existing bonny into a variant for those of us with current games that still use the Bonny? Perhaps give everyone a single item (Craft Mod Package, etc) that can not be purchased and sells for nothing and is used in tandem with a Bonny to manufacture a variant?
- The gold-crapping craft, do not like. First, a craft that just craps out gold sounds daft. Second, if my gals can just take the Bonny around the block for free gold . . . why the hell would they be in the business of dangerous pirating? Sounds like the total antithesis to a pirate's craft. Pirates shoud be using their craft to find and take treasure, not hanging buckets on the exhaust pipe to catch free loot. That's not pirate-y at all. That being said, I don't care if it makes it into game as I wouldn't touch it.
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You can always start a quick battle with different crafts to see their layout yourself, in the game ;)
As for upgrading, maybe the stream of progress could be first to fix the Bonny then modding it?
So for us who already have a game and a bonny, we could just upgrade it. There was a change made recently in the master code to allow crafts as manufacturing components, which could be pulled in OXCE+ for this.
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You can always start a quick battle with different crafts to see their layout yourself, in the game ;)
Certainly workable and I would be ok with that, but not ideal from a player's perspective. A bit tedious for something that would be a very important decision when starting a new game. If this is a choice immediately starting a new game, I feel it'd be best incorporated by having Bootypedia pages available before having to make the decision that demonstrated the battlescape layout.
If that is not possible, starting players off with a regular Bonny plus a single "Craft Mod Package/CMP" (and corresponding Bootypedia pages demonstrating layout) would be great. Would also let people with ongoing games that still use the Bonny participate without having to resort to hacking their save. Perhaps make the CMP available for purchase at a price that would keep re-crafting the Bonny from being open to abuse. That way you could re-purpose the Bonny later on if you don't like your choice, or to better suit your future operations. If the CMP is available to purchase, perhaps the initial craft weapon could be permanently mounted to avoid abuse. Piratez campaigns are long enough that I doubt many will do multiple runs to try out the variants.
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I fully agree that reruns of Piratez are not really something that will be common. However, once you upgrade the Bonny, as far as the game is concerned, it stops being the Bonny, so you can't upgrade it into something else unless you make N*(N-1) manufacturing projects to take any variant and turn it into any other one, or 2N projects, one to turn a Bonny into something and back, either is way too cumbersome..
I do like the idea of being able to change the Bonny throughout the game. Maybe once a game year, a special mission pops that yields the necessary components?
Actually, the solution could be craft modules, if we allow them to overwrite the map that is associated with a given craft. If you need special components for projects that allow you to make the mod + special weapon, you could properly limit the availability, while still allowing variations. Then a Fuego is a Bonny + RedPaintGoesFasta Mod + Magma cannon, etc.. With 1 mission per year giving you the component to make a new mod (and/or weapon), you could acquire different variants and change as the game and your needs evolve.
This would have the advantage of making the Bonny truly special and relevant throughout the game, whereas now, once you get a transporter than can carry more gals, the Bonny becomes much less important.
I think the idea of an evolving Bonny that remains your flagship for the game and evolves with you could be really cool! Especially if the tech combinations enable slight tweaks and refinement of the crafts, instead of just taking another variant from the starting choice to "complete the set".
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Sounds really cool. Here are my thoughts.
- I would want to be able to see the battlescape layout/deployment before choosing any of them. Would this be represented in game? Would be ideal if I didn't need to alt/tab to a browser for the ufopaedia.
Dream on. You and I both know ships don't have such detailed floor-by-floor data in the Pedia. Self-defeating. Also there is the QB.
Also, a general answer: you misunderstand. You won't start the game with Bonaventura-class anymore. You will have an Airbus (for your own good, partially... I plan to push the air game a bit further away so you have reasonable time to prepare for retal, and there will be no need to force Panzerfaust into the market from Day 1).
Hacking I won't discuss. All this module bonanza would hurt the uniqeness of the craft. One and only. That's it. Want all 5 variants at once? Well too bad, can't help you with your greed.
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I would have no intentions trying most of the variants, let alone having more than one. I know you are generally sharp with people, but no need to be a dick.
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That was a general answer, not to you personally.
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I'm curious as to how these ships will be made consistent with the story. The current situation is that we start with a Bonaventura. I just assume that we found it, or found the parts for it or something like that in the same way we found the starting base and lab. However, if the game is changed so that we somehow gain one of these ships after the start, there will need to be an explanation for why we can't just get more of them. (eg. if we build one, then why can't we build more? If we buy one, why can't we buy more? etc.) I've got some ideas for how that could be explained - but the ideas I have are a bit contrived.
That's a relatively minor issue... but the Dorado sounds like it might have a more serious implausibility problem. There will need to be an explanation for how the gold is produced, any why we can't just manipulate the ship to make gold whenever we want. (It's clear that the game mechanics don't allow us to land and take off repeatedly without a mission; but in the in-game universe I presume the girls could do that if they wanted to - so the game will need to explain why that wouldn't produce gold.)
From a balance point of view, the general concepts sound decent; and I suppose it's mostly about balancing them through their numbers and layout. But I wonder if we really need 5 options.
As you say, the Fortuna specialises in going after landed ufos and scouting. That sounds valuable, but it's a job that the Deliverator can do pretty well.
El Fuego would go after courier ships and other fast but weak-ish ships. Presumably it will carry a decent number of hands, and so it would be pretty powerful general purpose ship.
Compared to El Fuego, the Bonaventura would be slower, but carry more hands. I guess that means that the layout and capacity of El Fuego would need to be made a limiting factor, so that it isn't an obvious pick over the Bonavenura. ... Which again makes me think of the Deliverator. (For much of the game, I tend to use the Bonavenura when I need a lot of hands or auxiliaries; but use the Deliverator when I need speed.)
Metallo would specialise in being able fight slightly bigger ships more comfortably than the others... like the Kraken or something, but with enough hands to be useable. That sounds good.
Dorado is unique, but weird.
What I'm thinking is that there are essentially 3 key types of challenges for the ships:
- Fast ships / landings
- Big ships
- Big ground missions
These three challenges match up with three key ship properties:
- Speed
- Air strength
- Capacity
To have 5 different ships means that they can't just focus on one of those things with each ship; and so that makes it a lot more difficult for ships to have a unique feel. That's why El Fuego and Fortuna both make me think of the Deliverator. Clearly the ships can be different, but I wonder if there would be a stronger sense of uniqueness if there were fewer options. The Dorado doesn't fit into my categories, so that's nice from a uniqueness point of view, but I'm worried about it creating an implausibility scar on the otherwise nicely crafted universe.
Those are all my thoughts for now.
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Oh yes. The uniqueness. Instead of the Bonaventura, you will start with an Airbus in hangar and a derelict Bonaventura in the stores. You'll have to get some basic techs to repair it (at the same time, you will repair it into one of 5 choices).
Valid point with the Deliverator, but El Fuego will have a bit better capacity, better floor plan and better gun loadout, while being slower (probably around 2750 speed). Also the Deliverator takes time to develop.
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Well as I have changed my standard X-Com playstyle of "Shoot down all that moves" since shooting down ships lowers the haul after you take out the crew and loot/pillage I would likely go for speed over max number of hands. During the early game when you have fairly anemic radar coverage and are relying on Pigeons that speed is easily the difference between getting to a landed craft or missing the window by minutes. General thoughts on each are below.
- Bonaventura (green)
Given that I like the layout of the Bonny I would probably take this if I was doing ok already in terms of landed intercepts but needed something large for pogrom missions. Quantity has a quality all its own after all and the ability to head to the roof and gain a height advantage is quite nice before you have flying armors.
- El Fuego (red)
As I said above I would probably go with this or the Fortuna primarily because of the speed. I would have to decide based on the circumstances on whether I needed a fighter/transport type or something slightly slower but with more mileage and a good radar.
- Fortuna (blue)
I am torn on the use of the Fortuna because circling around on patrol burning expensive fuel is a bad idea unless you gain a very large advantage over using Pigeons. Perhaps make this completely unarmed and give it either a hyper-wave decoder type radar or use no fuel when anchored like the spy zeps?
- Metallo (black)
I like the idea but this doesn't sound like it would mesh with my play style. I tend to aggressively dismount using smoke and available cover for the ground pounders while snipers and bow equipped gals head up the stairs. I have found that if there isn't anyone visible on from the doors putting down smoke then letting the enemy wander around avoids losses due to the one guy who spawned in perfect position to snipe gals coming down the ramp or out the hatch. While a defensive structure on the ground would be nice most maps have cover of some sort that can be used to cut down LOS to your troops while allowing you to maintain good firing lines with proper positioning.
- Dorado (golden)
This just seems rife for abuse unless the gold despawns when you take off? I just think it would massively increase your initial income, particularly if you play it safe and simply enter every single mission you can grab the gold on the ground then fly away without expending ammo/hands fighting. Alternatively having the gold added to the rewards screen to the end of mission review would probably work, particularly if you balance the amount of gold against the size of ship with very small/small giving you a minimal amount and very large/pogrom/base giving a significant reward.
I can see a niche for each type depending on individual play style and the specifics of your campaign. Having trouble with Pogrom missions? Metallo or the base Bonny depending on if you prefer defensive or offensive tactics. Low income giving you trouble? Dorado could tip the scales into the black. I love the idea of starting with a flying bus. I can just see the conversation when the gals decide to go pirate.
"We are to be a fearsome band of sky pirates!"
"But Capn' we only have this bus to fly around with?"
"ARRR! Paint the Jolly Roger on the side and lets get to the plunder!"
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Bonaventura: Currently I agree, the roof is a nice tactical advance. On the downside there are the relatively exposed exitpoints. I do not use her therefore at all. Right now (just restarted a few minutes ago) I even sold her right at the start for the airbus because of the doors. Well I also wanted to get a feel how it is to start with an airbus. 6 Gals only are quiet interesting at the start.
El Fuego: So basically it is a buffed up Pachyderm. My favourite vessel so far because of the speed. It would render the red truck obsolete.
Fortuna: Is there even a need for this ship? Right now using a Jetbike to pin down the UFO's works fine with a Pachyderm. (Legion mentioned this I think and I tried it out). If you would choose the El Fuego instead one should be better of. Unless the Fortuna gets some huge radarrange I guess. I think the current concept of a scouting variant could only work if the pachyderm or the jetbike are getting removed or changed?
Well alltogether I think Jetbike and Pachyderm (as they are now) interferes too much with the two beforementioned vessels.
Metallo: Loving it. I am eager to see a nice layout. My very own fortress in a tactical battles. I will probably use this first. Maybe it will have a watchtower in the center of it for a single crewmember (aka Sniper). Like a crows nest!
Dorado: Naming a golden ship dorado has such a special feel! I even would try it without the goldbonus because it is golden. If the moneyboost early on is too gamebreaking one could make a new item called gold coin or soemthing like it to balance it out?
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Jetbikes and Pachyderms won't be available that easily. Also, repairing ventura hull would be cheaper than buying a new (sub-par) craft. Especially since a new craft = a new hangar. Also no ventura variant will be as fast as Pachyderm (although El Fuego might come close).
Dorado will be balanced... somehow :). One balancing factor will be that it'll be the heaviest and most thirsty of all (maybe on par with Metallo). Also installed creature comforts will definitely decrease its carrying capacity.
As for HWP capacity, all but Bonaventura will have 1, but that might change yet.
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Snip
As for HWP capacity, all but Bonaventura will have 1, but that might change yet.
Damnit so much for me trying out the other variants. Twin Parrots to OP to lose.
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Damnit so much for me trying out the other variants. Twin Parrots to OP to lose.
There's much talk about introoducing HWP categorization (small vs. large), or turning animals into soldier types. So I wouldn't despair yet. :)