OpenXcom Forum

Modding => Released Mods => The X-Com Files => Topic started by: psavola on July 10, 2023, 07:14:02 am

Title: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: psavola on July 10, 2023, 07:14:02 am
Reposting a link here. Month 0 (beginning of game at the end of December 1996) spawns a number of missions, which due to very small start delay and randomization crop up in January 1997. But that same month ("1") also spawns essentially a similar set of missions. Therefore you get double the number of missions in January 1997 compared to, for example, February 1997.

I can see no reason why January 1997 should have double the number of missions compared to, say, February 1997. Changing firstMonth: 0 to 1 should fix this bug. Also otherwise, IMHO it would also be nice to give a player a bit slower and easier start (for example, a bit more time to develop early research). If you get crazy RNG (as I had in the post), you could end up having 20+ missions in January 1997 which is physically impossible and you're guaranteed a bad month score.

More details based on geoscape debug log:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4595.msg156282.html#msg156282

BTW: Also 'Shotgun' ufopedia description goes on two pages (not sure if this was the exact same thing as reported before, because this is maybe due to many ammo types).
Title: Re: Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 10, 2023, 11:18:54 am
I can see no reason why January 1997 should have double the number of missions compared to, say, February 1997.

Why not? Difficult beginnings, you are the new sheriff in town and all... I've been thinking about it before, but it feels okay to me. It's not like scoring means anything at this point.

BTW: Also 'Shotgun' ufopedia description goes on two pages (not sure if this was the exact same thing as reported before, because this is maybe due to many ammo types).

That's because the shotgun has more than 3 types of clip. (But the clips from the second page are initially unresearched, so aren't shown.)
Title: Re: Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
Post by: psavola on July 10, 2023, 01:47:10 pm
Why not? Difficult beginnings, you are the new sheriff in town and all... I've been thinking about it before, but it feels okay to me. It's not like scoring means anything at this point.

It is very illogical. For example, according to *Cult Intercepted Messages (see the first messages you intercept), the cults are not even aware that there is a new sheriff in the town so there would be no reason for them to be doubly active in Jan 1997 compared to February. I can't think of any logical reason (or a reason that could be explained with existing lore) why the amount of activity in Jan 1997 should be significantly more higher than Feb 1997. A high peak of activity in January also cannot be an annual thing, because the same thing does not occur in January 1998.
Title: Re: Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
Post by: Juku121 on July 10, 2023, 02:38:18 pm
Why not?
Inconsistency without an explanation. I guess it'd be okay if there was some sort of blurb about the Council dumping all its currently active cultist/missing people investigations on us.

Also, these kinds of missions have been consistently criticised for being a 'slog'. I don't think it's terribly good for (new) player retention if the mod dumps all that on them in the beginning and then relents. Or, at least eliminating this from the 1-2 easiest difficulties might be worth considering.

Then again, I never noticed this myself.

It's not like scoring means anything at this point.
Er, it's one of your two strikes for losing the game? Granted, it's doubtful whether a bad early month will actually tank your score badly enough for that to apply.

It also reduces (or at least reduces the growth of) your Council funding, which is your main income source this early.
Title: Re: Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 10, 2023, 04:48:14 pm
It's just a lot of pointless work. Come on, let's be reasonable; nobody has ever even noticed before, and also I can't see it as a bug. You keep saying that it's "illogical" and stuff, but I don't think how this can be called illogical when there is not enough data to even make such a conclusion.
Title: Re: Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
Post by: Juku121 on July 10, 2023, 05:12:49 pm
We don't need data when the game mechanics are open to us, unlike RL. From a 'this reflects cultist activity' POV, it's definitely strange and unexplained. But this assumes what we see is indicative of how things are.

I've always thought X-Com never actually discovers all or even most cultist/cryptid activity, and the stuff we see on the globe is what our intel department/radars/contacts can get us.
Title: Re: Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 10, 2023, 05:36:26 pm
I've always thought X-Com never actually discovers all or even most cultist/cryptid activity, and the stuff we see on the globe is what our intel department/radars/contacts can get us.

Yes, that's pretty much how I see it.

I can block some scripts for month 0, if it's such a huge problem... But I honestly prefer it as it is, with an extra load of shit to deal with on day 1.
Title: Re: Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
Post by: krautbernd on July 10, 2023, 06:00:38 pm
Well, now that it has been pointed out I'd like to add that I also felt that something was a bit off with the games I've started in more recent versions. I found the prior number of missions early game a bit more reasonable tbh. And as much as I like the additional content I think it would be more...enjoyable...for players - especially new ones - if you weren't swamped in missions in the first months. I think staggering them out more would be reasonable.

Yes, strictly speaking it might make that much of a difference point wise, but that might not be obvious for players that aren't veterans. Being swamped with more missions than you can possibly adress is first and foremost frustrating and honestly I don't consider it good game design.
Title: Re: Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
Post by: sudtrap on July 11, 2023, 10:10:11 am
I think it's fine for what it's worth. Yeah, it does get pretty hectic during the first month, but it does give you alot of opportunities to get your feet wet. Combined with the cheaper agent costs, I think it makes the game more forgiving at the beginning.

Realism or not is hardly something that most people are going to think about; and although I've noticed that the beginning of the game was way more busy, I never really thought about it before. I doubt many people think about it too much.
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 11, 2023, 01:48:53 pm
Well, now that it has been pointed out I'd like to add that I also felt that something was a bit off with the games I've started in more recent versions. I found the prior number of missions early game a bit more reasonable tbh. And as much as I like the additional content I think it would be more...enjoyable...for players - especially new ones - if you weren't swamped in missions in the first months. I think staggering them out more would be reasonable.

Hmm, do you mean to say that there are more missions now because of new missions being introduced?

I honestly can't recall any early game missions being added since 2.3 (and they weren't super early either - I mean stuff like Cult Street Fighting).

Yes, strictly speaking it might make that much of a difference point wise, but that might not be obvious for players that aren't veterans. Being swamped with more missions than you can possibly adress is first and foremost frustrating and honestly I don't consider it good game design.

I'd rather say it's the veterans who notice...
We can argue whether this is jarring or the opposite, hardly noticeable, but I can't recall any "swamping" in early game, much less frustration. I understand that people have varied level of experience, but what's so frustrating about having more opportunities? In the worst case you'll just skip some missions, it won't end you. (EDIT: I see Sudtrap wrote something similar, but I only read it after writing this paragraph.)
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: krautbernd on July 11, 2023, 11:39:45 pm
Hmm, do you mean to say that there are more missions now because of new missions being introduced?

I honestly can't recall any early game missions being added since 2.3 (and they weren't super early either - I mean stuff like Cult Street Fighting).

I think I might I have used "early game" a bit too broadly here, I think what I noticed were two different things - the effect of more missions in general and the early game scripting "issues". Especially CoE/ghost hunt missions seem to spawn quite often for me.

We can argue whether this is jarring or the opposite, hardly noticeable, but I can't recall any "swamping" in early game, much less frustration. I understand that people have varied level of experience, but what's so frustrating about having more opportunities? In the worst case you'll just skip some missions, it won't end you.
This is a combination of "no actual control" over missions, not enough feedback regarding the impact of missing missions and being presented with mission spawns that are impossible to reach in time. I guess my dislike for this is partly down to the mechanics that FtA has introduced, which actually gives the player some agency instead of passively waiting for missions to pop up.
 
Like OP I also find the difference between the first month and second month a bit jarring, because there really isn't any reason or explanation why the cults/monsters/etc postpone their december activities to january just as the player takes over as commander. Why the inconsistency?
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Juku121 on July 12, 2023, 07:24:13 am
This is a combination of "no actual control" over missions, not enough feedback regarding the impact of missing missions and being presented with mission spawns that are impossible to reach in time. I guess my dislike for this is partly down to the mechanics that FtA has introduced, which actually gives the player some agency instead of passively waiting for missions to pop up.
But since this is not nor is it likely to be based on Finnik's version of OXC, more mission spawns is the closest we are going to get to controlling which kinds of missions we do. More missions on the map - more choice of which ones to do and thus more control. It's not ideal, but it is what it is.
 
...there really isn't any reason or explanation why the cults/monsters/etc postpone their december activities to january just as the player takes over as commander. Why the inconsistency?
My impression is that you can explain this by not increased cultist activity, but increased X-Com detection due to getting handed all the leads from precursor orgs/Council factions/whoever.
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: psavola on July 12, 2023, 12:29:43 pm
Veteran XCF players are likely indifferent or even like this feature - if you ignore the first month score and a small hit to council funding, you'll get a good enough score in February anyway. So you can skip some missions or go and abort the missions you don't like. You'll get maximum chances to train your agents.

But IMHO mods, especially the beginning, should be geared towards players that are new to the mod, to make it welcoming and encourage continuing to play it. (And XCF makes a good attempt at educating the beginning players with all the introductions.) XCF players come from vanilla or other mods which have just a couple of events in the first month(s) and have been used to the playstyle that you're supposed to deal with the missions that you get. Getting 10 or 20 times as many missions in XCF could be very brutal especially when you don't really know that you don't need to bother with all of them if you cannot. And even if firstMonth: 0 missions were removed, you'd likely still get maybe 7-8 missions, which is still plenty with the slow transports you have and get the newer players accustomed to the more hectic playstyle in XCF.

Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Juku121 on July 12, 2023, 01:05:48 pm
This looks more like a difficulty-related proposal. Maybe remove 'month 0' for Beginner/Experienced?

And even if firstMonth: 0 missions were removed, you'd likely still get maybe 7-8 missions...
I counted more like 11-12 on average. Although it can be quite unpredictable how many you actually get...
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: psavola on July 12, 2023, 03:18:18 pm
This looks more like a difficulty-related proposal. Maybe remove 'month 0' for Beginner/Experienced?

I doubt this is feasible (or I wouldn't implement it at least if I had to maintain this kind of mod). Such a change would require duplicating or at least referencing all the mission scripts that currently start at month 0; I don't think you can have a ruleset "firstMonth is 1 for difficulty level 0-1, otherwise it's 0". There would be a few ways to do this but AFAICS all of them are painful for maintenance point of view and prone to cause bugs (if one was to forget updating all of them if further changes are made or if a new mission is created).
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Juku121 on July 12, 2023, 03:51:29 pm
I doubt this is feasible (or I wouldn't implement it at least if I had to maintain this kind of mod).
Sure, but mission script maintenance is already a pain due to all the duplicate scripts and the sheer amount of missions. I think I saw some non-aligning numbers when I was looking at 'month 0' mission chances, and recall similar instances having been reported and fixed in the past. One more pinprick or two isn't too bad.

Whether these changes are worth it is another question, but I am admittedly in the "mods are for hardcore veterans, stick with vanilla if you're a casual who can't take it" camp. :P
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: krautbernd on July 12, 2023, 08:39:18 pm
More missions on the map - more choice of which ones to do and thus more control. It's not ideal, but it is what it is.

If anything this equals less control because you are forcing players to drop missions. There is no real "choice" here because you have no control over when and what missions spawn, nor does the player have knowledge regarding future mission spawns.
If a player is prevented from attending a newly spawned mission because of a prior mission spawn there isn't a valid choice being made. What you are referring to here is an illusion of choice that does not actually benefit the player because you can't retroactively pick out missions you want to attend or not.

My impression is that you can explain this by not increased cultist activity, but increased X-Com detection due to getting handed all the leads from precursor orgs/Council factions/whoever.

It's not like I haven't gone over this regarding lore/head canon friendly explanations. The thing is that the missions don't actually reflect this because they behave like regular newly spawned missions, not ongoing stuff you are catching on to. It simply isn't consistent with with subsequent months.

This is by no means game breaking or anything, but it does stand out for me (and apparently others as well).
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Juku121 on July 12, 2023, 09:51:15 pm
If anything this equals less control because you are forcing players to drop missions.
No? If the player can choose which mission to take and which to drop, it's control over what they do by default. Unlike doing all the missions, where the only control is over the order in which the missions get done. If that, since many of them aren't active simultaneously.

You're arguing about the degree of control, at most, and coming from what I see as a highly idiosyncratic view of what control means. Game design is all about constraining what the players can do, in a manner the designer thinks is interesting and/or fun. And all too often these days, even a moderate degree of freedom leads to players being paralysed with indecision. :(

Players also do not necessarily have to drop anything, depending on how well they manage the strategy part, as evidenced by many if not most people never noticing this issue in the first place after years of development and 'month 0' mission bloat.

There is no real "choice" here because you have no control over when and what missions spawn...
Mission-gating research exists, so you're wrong even about that.

And not having total control over which mission types you do in a given month is hardly total lack of control.

If a player is prevented from attending a newly spawned mission because of a prior mission spawn there isn't a valid choice being made.
Only the first time. Next time, or next game, either the player has prepared for this by upping their transport game, or has chosen to remain in the previous situation.

And you're almost never in such a position. The only time this line of thinking applies is when all your transports are on return trips back to base. In almost any other situation, barring range/speed issues, you're free to choose to do the new mission instead.

Never mind all the games that pride themselves on 'choices and consequences' by giving you basically conditionally branching mission trees.

What you are referring to here is an illusion of choice that does not actually benefit the player because you can't retroactively pick out missions you want to attend or not.
If you're so concerned about picking the exact lineup of missions, enable savescumming, save at the start of the month, check out all the missions and reload. Because beyond that, I don't think many games even allow such a degree of freedom. The original certainly didn't. It's always been about limited information and living with the consequences of your choices made within the fog of war.

You were never given control over where and when UFOs spawn on the Geoscape. Even nuCom's 'choose one of three terror sites' thing, which is much closer to what you're criticising here, had choice and control. It was artificial choice, but by no means an illusion of one.

Illusion of choice means the outcome doesn't depend on the choice, not that the choice is constrained in some way.

The thing is that the missions don't actually reflect this because they behave like regular newly spawned missions, not ongoing stuff you are catching on to. It simply isn't consistent with with subsequent months.
Yes, and your first day on the job isn't consistent with the rest of your career. Quelle surprise.

Solarius already said that he views all missions (or at least all missions of the general sort) as 'ongoing stuff you are catching on to'. We don't have total penetration of cults/backwater villages, we don't become aware of things as they happen. There are conceivably hundreds of these things on the globe every month, and the ones we see are the ones we've found out about. We get a boost to the 'finding out' part in the beginning, that's it.

This is by no means game breaking or anything, but it does stand out for me (and apparently others as well).
Sure, it's only been what, several years, until one person actually pointed this out? You admitted yourself that your own problem with mission overload wasn't really 'month 0', but rather ghost missions and general mission overload. Which are valid criticisms, the latter having been made plenty of times before, and my impression is that Solarius has made a conscious design choice about this being so. So it's either live with it, or make a submod. Maybe publish it if you want to convince others that this is the better way.


For the record, I haven't played the ghost stuff, but I've watched some others and I also don't really like this arc, nor its prominence with high-probability mission spawns compared to regular 8*3% stuff.
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: krautbernd on July 12, 2023, 10:34:50 pm
Juku, you are doing the thing again. Why are you needlessly escalating this?

I am not going to deign that wall of text that you are posting with a detailed answer. In fact I am not even going to bother reading it because juding by our previous interactions that started out like this it would be a waste of my time.

If Solarius or anybody else wants to discuss this I will be happy to do this in a civilized manner, but what you are doing here is not a productive approach. Either keep your replies concise or don't bother. I certainly won't if you keep doing this.



Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Juku121 on July 12, 2023, 10:57:24 pm
Judging by previous experiences, even if I tried, you'd just repeat the same position back no matter what I or enyone else said. So I'll pass. If you want to do something constructive, make a submod to demonstrate your case, as I proposed.

Everyone else can read my arguments and make up their own minds. Or not, if they do not wish to.
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: krautbernd on July 12, 2023, 11:56:34 pm
You don't try Juku, that's the point. And I am simply sick and tired of people who have to rely on discussion styles aimed at burrowing arguments under walls of text. If you can keep your replies concise and not >300% of what you are trying to adress I might actually bother to read and consider them. But at this point what you are doing is for a lack of better words rude and excessive.
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 13, 2023, 12:15:08 pm
I doubt this is feasible (or I wouldn't implement it at least if I had to maintain this kind of mod). Such a change would require duplicating or at least referencing all the mission scripts that currently start at month 0; I don't think you can have a ruleset "firstMonth is 1 for difficulty level 0-1, otherwise it's 0". There would be a few ways to do this but AFAICS all of them are painful for maintenance point of view and prone to cause bugs (if one was to forget updating all of them if further changes are made or if a new mission is created).

Yes, that would be doable, but very ugly and bloated. I'd rather not deal with that, I try to keep the files as readable (to me) as possible...
If I were to take action, I'd rather switch some scripts from month 0 to month 1.
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Spacewolf on July 16, 2023, 03:51:39 pm
A ridiculously stupid question, but:

Month 0 is December 1996 in "base" XCom Files, correct?

Why are there any missions in a month where you have only 48 game hours to do anything, most of which will probably necessarily be spent with "game start housekeeping" (my term, yes, but I have no doubt every player has stuff they do every playthrough before attempting missions)? Why not just hold off on missions til 1 January 1997?

I don't know, just me.
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Juku121 on July 16, 2023, 04:33:00 pm
Why are there any missions in a month where you have only 48 game hours...
Technical reasons (it's easier to assign missions to any starting month regardless of exact starting date) plus Solarius found that he actually likes the effect.

Why not just hold off on missions til 1 January 1997?
New sheriff in town, XCF new player hazing ritual ;D, showcases more missions. None of it is compelling, but neither is the opposite position, at least so far.
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: sudtrap on July 17, 2023, 09:18:18 pm
I personally like getting a mission on month zero. It feels good to win it; like you're getting ahead of the game.

Maybe I'm just stirring the pot, but I don't feel like Juku really escalated things. Not really. Maybe I'm just biased because I agree with his points, but... I agree with him in that
Solarius made a decision; why not make a submod if there is disagreement?

There are a million different ways Solarius could have made Xcom files; and many of those ways would also be fun. Disagreement is only going to be natural.

Honestly, if someone did tweak things in a different direction, it could be enjoyable.

Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Juku121 on July 17, 2023, 09:26:36 pm
Well, the problem isn't so much missions during 'month 0', it's rather that the missions for 'month 0' get generated at the end of the month and lumped together with 'month 1', and thus make January an exciting and dangerous time to be in charge of nascent X-Com.


As to communication issues, I am the living embodiment of this trope :-[:
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)

I am a large part of the problem. But I can be reasoned with and convinced to change my mind/lay off/change direction if the other side is willing to. Make of it what you will.
Title: Re: Month 0 mission scripts
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 20, 2023, 10:55:23 pm
While I haven't changed my mind, I've decided to disable most scripts during month 0. Let's call it an experiment. :)