Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N8 28-Apr-2024 Labyrinthus Noctis

[Surrealistik]

Why would the Guild limit itself like this? Even in our reality, corporations do whatever they want, in places they are allowed to. Why would the Guild be different? They are practically a monopolist.

Because they're under the direct supervision of the Star Gods, who, despite being quite permissive so long as Earth remains subdued and run in accordance with their interests, ultimately leaves plenty of illegal niches and off-limit areas for Goldman Sacks to build significant business interests in (fusion power for example, and other unauthorized technologies; remember that technological stasis is mandated, particularly in certain key areas, unauthorized weaponry, especially nukes, financing of criminal entities, etc).

Black and grey markets are off-limits to the Guild by definition precisely because Star God opposition to their commodities is what makes them black and grey.

[Solarius Scorch]

Because they're under the direct supervision of the Star Gods, who, despite being quite permissive so long as Earth remains subdued and run in accordance with their interests, ultimately leaves plenty of illegal niches and off-limit areas for Goldman Sacks to build significant business interests in (fusion power for example, and other unauthorized technologies; remember that technological stasis is mandated, particularly in certain key areas, unauthorized weaponry, especially nukes, financing of criminal entities, etc).

Black and grey markets are off-limits to the Guild by definition precisely because Star God opposition to their commodities is what makes them black and grey.

That's OK, but then the GS are "just" a crime syndicate. A very powerful crime syndicate.

[Surrealistik]

That's OK, but then the GS are "just" a crime syndicate. A very powerful crime syndicate.

That's the idea; they're a powerful, amoral transnational pre-war banking institution wielding considerable governmental influence turned powerful amoral transnational post-war crime syndicate wielding considerable governmental influence. Repo Men are kept on the down-low and not sent out to conquest because in the long run, it's ultimately much more profitable to rake in the money with your near monopoly of the shadow economy versus rattling the cage and incurring certain death for your trouble, especially where they've managed to make nice with the local authorities (or even the Factions in some cases) and get them to turn a blind eye.

[Solarius Scorch]

That's the idea; they're a powerful, amoral transnational pre-war banking institution wielding considerable governmental influence turned powerful amoral transnational post-war crime syndicate wielding considerable governmental influence. Repo Men are kept on the down-low and not sent out to conquest because in the long run, it's ultimately much more profitable to rake in the money with your near monopoly of the shadow economy versus rattling the cage and incurring certain death for your trouble, especially where they've managed to make nice with the local authorities (or even the Factions in some cases) and get them to turn a blind eye.

It's all OK, but I feel the need to reiterate that they can't have any military power. How powerful can a gang be, compared even to the weakest state? Could Camorra go and win a war against a country? Even discussing it feels silly.

[Surrealistik]

It's all OK, but I feel the need to reiterate that they can't have any military power. How powerful can a gang be, compared even to the weakest state? Could Camorra go and win a war against a country? Even discussing it feels silly.

Camorra isn't quite on the same tier; a more apt comparison would be one of the giant multinationals who feature more economic activity and wealth than many smaller countries, but even that doesn't quite encompass it. We're talking a syndicate with massive global market share in the grey and black market; there is no modern day equivalent (I struggle to think of a historical one); no present day crime syndicate comes close to having that much power, and if it did, it could probably, if it wanted to and was willing to suffer the repercussions, engage in the military conquest of less developed countries. I don't see the problem with it having military power in light of its economic power, particularly in as anarchistic a world as the one that exists in PirateZ; in fact, that's probably expected if it wants to retain its holdings and power, and enforce its contracts/dealings. The key is that it doesn't rock the boat and draw the ire of the Factions, or worse and more terminally, the Star Gods.

[Solarius Scorch]

Well, the truth is, that one one side I just can't see enough space (by far) in the Piratez Earth economy for such an entity. Not that it's impossible per se, but there's just too many players, too big, too amoral.
It's not like I have super knowledge in this regard though.

[Surrealistik]

It's all relative; why shouldn't there be such space for a big global player in the black and grey markets? In fact, it's not even too unlikely in that the powers that be would probably enjoy the existence of such an entity who they know won't rock the boat or do anything stupid to upset the existing order as a necessary and lesser evil. They might not _like_ the fact that the shadow economy exists, and will stamp it out where they can and are compelled to (trading nuclear weapons is a no no), but they also acknowledge its inevitability, and if it must exist, best it has a (relatively) stable, predictable and level headed administrator. Beyond that, power naturally tends to consolidate over time outside of catastrophe; GS had 600 years, considerable existing assets and Technocracy contacts to get its shit together and become the most prominent shadow economy operator in the world.

That said, I never intended GS to essentially have a complete _monopoly_ over the shadow economy (that would indeed be implausible); just a majority, near-majority share.

[Dioxine]

About the only place such a behemoth could exist is somewhere around Smugglers. Right place, right connections, and the Smugglers are already crucial to the lore (they seem to be the contact to the loan sharks). The only shadow economy that is profitable enough to breed such a syndicate would be the interstellar one, since on Earth, everything is either monopolized, tightly controlled, or not worth the effort. Also it's worth mentioning that it is the Star Gods who are THE biggest crime syndicate around.

[Surrealistik]

About the only place such a behemoth could exist is somewhere around Smugglers. Right place, right connections, and the Smugglers are already crucial to the lore (they seem to be the contact to the loan sharks). The only shadow economy that is profitable enough to breed such a syndicate would be the interstellar one, since on Earth, everything is either monopolized, tightly controlled, or not worth the effort. Also it's worth mentioning that it is the Star Gods who are THE biggest crime syndicate around.

Makes sense to me; I definitely see most of their real profits coming from the transaction of forbidden tech: nukes, fusion power, 'true' AIs and other forbidden innovations, including interstellar/extraterrestrial import/export.

[Solarius Scorch]

So... Is the GS big boss gonna look like Jabba?

(Hey, it's totally doable. Perhaps based on Robin's Multiworm sprite.)

[Surrealistik]

So... Is the GS big boss gonna look like Jabba?

(Hey, it's totally doable. Perhaps based on Robin's Multiworm sprite.)

Jabba with Lloyd Blankfein's face; I'm sold. Extensive genetic mutilation was the only way he could achieve immortality at the time, and this was the horrible outcome.

Either that or the big boss may well be a true AI of some kind (that was initially cultivated for sophisticated high frequency trading and later repurposed... then seized GS in a coup, or 'hostile takeover' as it would euphemistically put it in corporate speak, when it saw how insufferably inefficient the human management was), programmed with the core directive to maximize profits at all cost (with a Jabba Blankfein avatar), or even Blankfein's uploaded consciousness. Makes sense given the Technocracy association/angle; Jabba the Skynet.

[khade]

Make the Repo Men all look like Elvis and I'm sold.

Though technically, the Traders seem to only have one rule they have to follow from the Star Gods: don't make them come down here, AKA the Star Gods will basically ignore anything that doesn't get in the way of their power.

[Dioxine]

I definitely see most of their real profits coming from the transaction of forbidden tech: nukes, fusion power, 'true' AIs and other forbidden innovations, including interstellar/extraterrestrial import/export.

These are investment-intensive technologies that require a serious industrial base, that's easy to track down and bomb out. What's more, these techs are expensive, especially taking the investment cost into consideration. Star Gods swamp conquered planets with cheap shit. Makes little sense to be illegally selling stuff when you're not making quick and huge profits... Are GS communists?

Fusion power gets only cheap if you already have it in abundance, as it allows for exponential growth of energy generation. It's a long-term, expensive solution. Star Gods offer Hellerium, a short-term, 'cheap' solution (as the cost is paid by someone else - those planets, which have been already scammed). Now which one will be the greatest hit amongst tightly-competing buyers? Fusion power is of not much interest to those engaged with frenetic race to the bottom.

The true AI - SGs sell it for cheaps too. Cheap as fock. And since they're masters of information (their sole forte), their AIs actually work. If we can divine anything from the evolution of AI on our Earth, is that our Skynet will bluescreen rather quickly, probably randomly firing nuclear missiles in the process. HFT works only because it operates in a 100% man-made environment (stock market) - not to mention it's maintained by hordes of very much biological programmers 24/7.

[Surrealistik]

These are investment-intensive technologies that require a serious industrial base, that's easy to track down and bomb out. What's more, these techs are expensive, especially taking the investment cost into consideration. Star Gods swamp conquered planets with cheap shit. Makes little sense to be illegally selling stuff when you're not making quick and huge profits... Are GS communists?

Fusion power gets only cheap if you already have it in abundance, as it allows for exponential growth of energy generation. It's a long-term, expensive solution. Star Gods offer Hellerium, a short-term, 'cheap' solution (as the cost is paid by someone else - those planets, which have been already scammed). Now which one will be the greatest hit amongst tightly-competing buyers? Fusion power is of not much interest to those engaged with frenetic race to the bottom.

There's clearly a demand for them though, especially nukes and other WMDs (no doubt there are many large stockpiles that the SGs missed, something that's a prominent lore point in the game, even discounting the clandestine fabrication of new ones) which the Star Gods have outlawed for good reason, and as the drug wars have taught us, if there's demand for an extremely scarce and tightly controlled commodity, there's lots of profit to be made, with the margins increasing in proportion to the scarcity. Fusion power is probably not as lucrative, but I imagine GS could buy low (especially on a backwater like Earth where there's no interest whatsoever) and sell high to certain specialized customers that can leverage it (including perhaps even buyers outside of the Empire). Then of course there's all the other Hellerium alternatives, and weaponry in general that prohibitions are leveled against (or that are otherwise heavily regulated).

The true AI - SGs sell it for cheaps too. Cheap as fock. And since they're masters of information (their sole forte), their AIs actually work. If we can divine anything from the evolution of AI on our Earth, is that our Skynet will bluescreen rather quickly, probably randomly firing nuclear missiles in the process. HFT works only because it operates in a 100% man-made environment (stock market) - not to mention it's maintained by hordes of very much biological programmers 24/7.

True AI as in sentient, sapient AIs (or AIs capable of achieving that)? I thought that the Slave AIs were sophisticated, but not quite at that level, with Planetary Governor tier intelligences strictly prohibited.

I'm definitely taking creative liberties with the level of AI sophistication that humans have developed, the idea being that Goldman Sachs was well ahead of the curve but kept this technology a closely guarded secret for the sake of maximizing profits while it could as a testament to its greed.

[Dioxine]

Agreed on the nukes, as long as stockpiles last, they make a good black market commodity (however you can construct WMDs out of Hellerium as well). Also let's not forget about food and other essentials, artificial scarcity makes illegally dealing in these quite a business (although this stuff has low mass/value ratio).

As for superhumanly intelligent AIs, they could either be:
- Solidly-made digital slave-gods. Nobody has the scientific base to build these. It'd be like trying to build a moon rocket in the Ancient Greece, so no point even discussing these (and trouble they can bring).
- Shoddily made, but powerful digital AIs. Would be extremely prone to breakdowns. Might be an useful trade commodity, but their task are better performed by the AIs sold by the Star Gods.
- Sapient/Sentient, superhuman AIs. Well now, these could be raised with available tech, given some time and resources, BUT... instead of becoming a market commodity, they could very easily outwit their masters and become crime lords themselves. So no smart crimelord would venture into this venue.
- Augmented biologicals. Doable, as above. They were rich and powerful, or their retainers, to begin with. So cannot be merchandise, they're merchants or warlords. Allowed since near-immortality is allowed for leaders, which the Star Gods dangle before said leaders to assure cooperation. Quite possibly, bootleg augmentations and life prolongation drugs are a good black market merchandise.
- Biorobots. Not really on topic, since they'd be subhuman on purpose, but could - possibly - compete with Slave AIs, if anyone had the capacity to build (breed) these. Quite likely most reviled of all AIs, since they could compete with Star God merchandise.