Author Topic: Troop Deployment: Unfair?  (Read 853 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2020, 02:47:49 pm »
Fire: hot
Water: wet
Sky: blue
Superhuman: unfairly hard

What the hell is wrong with this community? Why are we even talking about such obvious things? You all act like levels 1-4 were some kind of tiered tutorial levels. Why on Earth would anyone thing that?

And about artificially decreasing the AI units' starting TU: how about we lower your TUs instead? Will this be fair and fun? Will you enjoy it? If not, why are you trying to penalize the poor AI, which stands no chance against a human brain anyway?

Offline Slaughter

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2020, 01:26:03 am »
Holy shit the Extinguisher Smoke trick really works. Been using it all the time, now. Its hilariously surreal to have secret agents improvising a fire extinguisher as a Smoke Grenade. This is pure gambiarra.

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Offline Slaughter

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2020, 01:37:19 am »


Fire: hot
Water: wet
Sky: blue
Superhuman: unfairly hard

What the hell is wrong with this community? Why are we even talking about such obvious things? You all act like levels 1-4 were some kind of tiered tutorial levels. Why on Earth would anyone thing that?

And about artificially decreasing the AI units' starting TU: how about we lower your TUs instead? Will this be fair and fun? Will you enjoy it? If not, why are you trying to penalize the poor AI, which stands no chance against a human brain anyway?

Uhh... Because they are?

I always thought anything lower than superhuman = tutorial levels for noobs and prancing nancy boys. Like playing Doom in anything lower than Ultraviolence. UV is clearly the way the game was actually meant to be played, with Nightmare being an ultra insane mode for masochists.

It ins't?

Thread is because Cultist Outpost/Safehouse/Base missions are luck-based, pretty much. Its pretty much the RNG deciding between dropping over a dozen dudes surrounding your four dudes in all directions or not.

So it looks like X-COM literally starts the mission by honking and yelling "COME FITE US CULTISTS" while driving straight into ALL the dudes. Its weird.



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Offline HumanTraitor

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2020, 01:38:30 am »
Holy shit the Extinguisher Smoke trick really works. Been using it all the time, now. Its hilariously surreal to have secret agents improvising a fire extinguisher as a Smoke Grenade. This is pure gambiarra.

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Well, you CAN create a minor distraction of sorts with the use of a fire extinguisher, especially in the movies, a thing which the game tries to replicate here with this trick. However, it can harm the agent using it (Stun damage) due of the smoke produced. However, note that smoke grenades CANNOT extinguish fires, so watch out if one of your units is set on fire!

Offline Doc

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2020, 08:55:50 am »
Sometimes I think the starting deployments are ridiculous and unfair. Then I remember that I have a free mission abort button ready to go at the start and if I walk my agents into an unwinnable gunfight that's on me. Cult missions proc enough that you can pick your battles, or trade agent lives and roll the dice on a sketchy landing. All up to you director.

Now Ski Resort missions where we let our agents get fully surrounded and outgunned in a building with 0 real cover, no idea why we do those. Early retirement resorts are what they call them in the locker rooms now.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2020, 01:27:15 pm »

Uhh... Because they are?

I always thought anything lower than superhuman = tutorial levels for noobs and prancing nancy boys. Like playing Doom in anything lower than Ultraviolence. UV is clearly the way the game was actually meant to be played, with Nightmare being an ultra insane mode for masochists.

Sarcasm noted and appreciated. :)

Thread is because Cultist Outpost/Safehouse/Base missions are luck-based, pretty much. Its pretty much the RNG deciding between dropping over a dozen dudes surrounding your four dudes in all directions or not.

It's true to a degree, I honestly don't intend to argue. Sometimes you start badly and need to simply GTFO. It's totally fine IMO.

So it looks like X-COM literally starts the mission by honking and yelling "COME FITE US CULTISTS" while driving straight into ALL the dudes. Its weird.

Maybe not actively, but parking a car - or worse, landing a VTOL aircraft - right by a paramilitary base will obviously give the inhabitants a heads-up.

Now Ski Resort missions where we let our agents get fully surrounded and outgunned in a building with 0 real cover, no idea why we do those. Early retirement resorts are what they call them in the locker rooms now.

Yeah, that's why you start in a building now. It wasn't so in the past, but this change was introduced back in 0.9.9.

Offline Slaughter

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2020, 07:23:13 pm »
Sometimes I think the starting deployments are ridiculous and unfair. Then I remember that I have a free mission abort button ready to go at the start and if I walk my agents into an unwinnable gunfight that's on me. Cult missions proc enough that you can pick your battles, or trade agent lives and roll the dice on a sketchy landing. All up to you director.

Now Ski Resort missions where we let our agents get fully surrounded and outgunned in a building with 0 real cover, no idea why we do those. Early retirement resorts are what they call them in the locker rooms now.
Ski Resort Missions are viable at night. Just toss your flares right and you will see the enemy, but they won't see you. Hope there's nobody too close. You can then snipe the enemy from outside of night visibility range, while leaving your soldiers with close-range guns and melee ready in case enemies march out from the dark. Extinguishers help.

At day through... Yeah nope, that little lodge has no cover at all. Early Retirement Resorts indeed.

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Offline Doc

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2020, 01:23:54 am »
Ski Resort Missions are viable at night. Just toss your flares right and you will see the enemy, but they won't see you. Hope there's nobody too close. You can then snipe the enemy from outside of night visibility range, while leaving your soldiers with close-range guns and melee ready in case enemies march out from the dark. Extinguishers help.

At day through... Yeah nope, that little lodge has no cover at all. Early Retirement Resorts indeed.

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Agreed, night time with melee and crossbows is a bit more manageable. I've also had some luck in day time by popping copious amounts of smoke, but it's just not quite worth it. The beach missions tend to be far easier despite coming later and having tougher enemies.

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2020, 04:09:49 am »
Agreed, night time with melee and crossbows is a bit more manageable. I've also had some luck in day time by popping copious amounts of smoke, but it's just not quite worth it. The beach missions tend to be far easier despite coming later and having tougher enemies.
Interesting. i always found the ski missions a lot easier than beach. Beach is just pure horror...
(i do both at day though, usually with crossbows)

Offline justaround

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2020, 02:21:29 pm »
What the hell is wrong with this community? Why are we even talking about such obvious things? You all act like levels 1-4 were some kind of tiered tutorial levels. Why on Earth would anyone thing that?
Absolutely nothing. People here have various ideas, talk, agree or disagree about things but it's pretty regular stuff. I don't think people act like anything, some just point out where they see what issues relative to their expectations. It can be disregarded, addressed, opinion changed but just because it's mentioned - there's nothing wrong.

And about artificially decreasing the AI units' starting TU: how about we lower your TUs instead? Will this be fair and fun? Will you enjoy it?
Simple logic: will doing so solve the issue people mention in thsi thread without introducing bigger issues? If so, yes, but I am pretty sure that wouldn't do anything, if anything - it'd make the issue reported bigger.

If not, why are you trying to penalize the poor AI, which stands no chance against a human brain anyway?
Because it's not a matter of AI, it being poor or not, being hard or not but whether it's okay start of certain rounds, at least according to some players, is fair or not. People's issue doesn't lie in making AI better/worse right now, but in the fact that sometimes no matter how good or bad player would be they're being punished before they even get to do something that would warrant that punishment.
And sure, someone can say "sometimes things are unfair" but that's an obvious design flaw unless the idea of them getting into such situation is intentionally planned - in which case telling them so would probably make the whole exchange shorter.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2020, 04:17:42 pm »
Absolutely nothing. People here have various ideas, talk, agree or disagree about things but it's pretty regular stuff. I don't think people act like anything, some just point out where they see what issues relative to their expectations. It can be disregarded, addressed, opinion changed but just because it's mentioned - there's nothing wrong.

Sorry, but this is more that that. It's some pervasive dumb meme which leaves me dumbfounded and get in the way of proper conversation. I wouldn't mind one or two people being like that, but it's way too pervasive. It's dumb and unhealthy.

Simple logic: will doing so solve the issue people mention in thsi thread without introducing bigger issues? If so, yes, but I am pretty sure that wouldn't do anything, if anything - it'd make the issue reported bigger.

Because this is a soft version of "win nao" button.

Because it's not a matter of AI, it being poor or not, being hard or not but whether it's okay start of certain rounds, at least according to some players, is fair or not. People's issue doesn't lie in making AI better/worse right now, but in the fact that sometimes no matter how good or bad player would be they're being punished before they even get to do something that would warrant that punishment.
And sure, someone can say "sometimes things are unfair" but that's an obvious design flaw unless the idea of them getting into such situation is intentionally planned - in which case telling them so would probably make the whole exchange shorter.

Who on Earth has ever said that a game has to be fair? Why would anyone ask that X-Com should be fair? It's been unfair since the very beginning, that's the whole point.

Excuse me, but I find this simply confusing. This isn't a sport game.

Offline peirceg

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2020, 11:14:40 pm »
Why not put an extraction point on the other end of the map for the ski mission? Would give you a fighting chance of making it out since it is at night.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2020, 12:45:28 am »
Why not put an extraction point on the other end of the map for the ski mission? Would give you a fighting chance of making it out since it is at night.

Possible, but I'm not sure such a setup would be universally great.

Offline justaround

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2020, 07:08:54 pm »
Sorry, but this is more that that. It's some pervasive dumb meme which leaves me dumbfounded and get in the way of proper conversation. I wouldn't mind one or two people being like that, but it's way too pervasive. It's dumb and unhealthy.
It's pervasive exactly because/but it's not just a meme. It's a common attitude/idea and one you may disagree with but it doesn't make it any less/more meme or dumb, just less likely to be listened to since in the end it all depends on you, we just provide feedback - including one that may sometimes annoy the hell out of you :P

Because this is a soft version of "win nao" button.
Not being surrounded/shot at by enemy units before the player does anything during first round is a "win nao" button? Or having player's TU lowered is a "win nao" button? Neither seems to be such decisive thing unless someone claims that either players win every battle at the beginning of the first turn or they somehow win by having TU lowered - neither seems reasonable to me.

Who on Earth has ever said that a game has to be fair?
Most game developers ever, I'd suspect but it depends whether you see risky challenges as part of it being fair. Either way, developers may make the game challenging, offer obstacles and risky situations but most games of any kind either have progression in the boundaries of certain rules player can understand or the few that don't make that the main challenge to overcome. UFO/XCOM is the former, however.

Why would anyone ask that X-Com should be fair? It's been unfair since the very beginning, that's the whole point.
Not at all! Even Julian Gollop, as I recall from his presentation on EGX admitted that he simply is most interested in simulation aspect and that he even added stuff like hush-hush dynamic difficulty in UFO that was slowing down alien progression if the player was having hard time and resuming it once said player was getting better - literally admitting it's because he had hard time and no idea about balancing and it was such stuff that, again, in his opinion made the game playable.

I dislike autobalancing to be honest, but it does underline that even by the design game being unfair was never "the whole point". Even XCOM was meant to be hard but balanced, just with some random curve balls to pose a challenge kept in mind. It just, well, as Gollop admits wasn't ideal at it. Now, we can disagree whether changes in this or that direction would negatively affect that balance, make things too hard or too easy, but like every game, some fairness and consistent boundaries are necessary for it to be a game.

Excuse me, but I find this simply confusing. This isn't a sport game.
Probably doesn't have to be. Though I guess the difference here is based on opinion where the fairness is. I don't mean "every situation offers same difficulty to each sides allowing initial equal chance of success" (a trait of most sport games), but I find important to limit situations with player being screwed over by no fault on their own under circumstances they couldn't really prevent or manage (prefering harsh but understandable screw-ups due to tactical/strategic mistakes and taking risks) even if you'd consider it a fair challenge.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 07:14:10 pm by justaround »

Offline Bobit

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Re: Troop Deployment: Unfair?
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2020, 11:07:30 pm »
Adjusting difficulty breaks a lot of strategy games. So it's not a bad idea for some mods to be designed around being fairly winnable on superhuman. Modders would be better off manually changing the difficult modes to their tastes but that's a lot of work. XCOM works best at a fairly hard difficulty and ironman.