aliens

Author Topic: [DONE] [Suggestion] Completing a landed UFO battle to stop alien mission  (Read 7252 times)

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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EDIT by Meridian: split from: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,6456.0.html

Excellent! However, can you make it also do an interrupt check from a successful ground mission at the UFO landing site?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 06:04:18 pm by Meridian »

Online Meridian

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2018, 08:46:14 pm »
Excellent! However, can you make it also do an interrupt check from a successful ground mission at the UFO landing site?

I can.

Give me a good reason.

Offline Ethereal

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2018, 09:10:13 pm »
I can.

Give me a good reason.

Very often it is unprofitable to storm the shot down UFO. It happens that have to wait when the UFO landed, despite the possibility of destroying it.

Online Meridian

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2018, 09:15:25 pm »
Very often it is unprofitable to storm the shot down UFO. It happens that have to wait when the UFO landed, despite the possibility of destroying it.

Yes, that's a well known fact.
It is always unprofitable to shoot down UFOs... it's always better for the player if they land.

What does that have to do with mission interruption?
Why would I want to interrupt a mission that's good for me... gives me money, resources, experience, etc. and all without a hassle of shooting UFO down. Plus it gives more than when shot down.

Offline Ethereal

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2018, 09:19:05 pm »
Yes, that's a well known fact.
It is always unprofitable to shoot down UFOs... it's always better for the player if they land.

What does that have to do with mission interruption?
Why would I want to interrupt a mission that's good for me... gives me money, resources, experience, etc. and all without a hassle of shooting UFO down. Plus it gives more than when shot down.

I just gave the obvious reason.  :) You're absolutely right.

Online Meridian

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2018, 09:22:10 pm »
I just gave the obvious reason.  :) You're absolutely right.

OK, I give up... I really don't understand what you want to say.

I'll wait for explanation from Reaver.

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2018, 09:25:48 pm »
Why would I want to interrupt a mission that's good for me... gives me money, resources, experience, etc. and all without a hassle of shooting UFO down. Plus it gives more than when shot down.
We're talking options for the modder, not forcing things on the player. If the modder sets 100% interrupt before the big ships come, you lose out on them whether you shoot the scouts down or take them on the ground. But if the modder only sets 100% interrupt on the last big ship, you don't lose anything by interrupting the mission by taking the last craft out.

Why should a player feel like they can't take the big ship on the ground just because it'll force mission completion? Does it make sense that the mission only fails if they wait for it to take off and shoot it down again?



My plan for using this feature is to add a scout wave after big final UFOs, timed such that you have some time to shoot down the last big one or take it on the ground, but you can't wait until the end of its flight. For example, the infiltration battleship comes in and lands for a few hours. If you don't take it out before or shortly after it lands, it succeeds in the mission.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 09:32:27 pm by The Reaver of Darkness »

Offline Ethereal

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2018, 09:34:31 pm »
Why should a player feel like they can't take the big ship on the ground just because it'll force mission completion? Does it make sense that the mission only fails if they wait for it to take off and shoot it down again?

After takeoff, the mission is usually considered to be completed and to shoot down a UFO it makes sense only for statistics. Meridian is right. Either resources from the whole UFO, or the interruption of a dangerous mission. The player has a choice of what is more important to him.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 09:36:04 pm by Ethereal »

Online Meridian

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2018, 09:47:36 pm »
My plan for using this feature is to add a scout wave after big final UFOs, timed such that you have some time to shoot down the last big one or take it on the ground, but you can't wait until the end of its flight. For example, the infiltration battleship comes in and lands for a few hours. If you don't take it out before or shortly after it lands, it succeeds in the mission.

Understood.

So... isn't it much easier and more understandable for both modder and the player to not let the infiltration battleship land at all?
(same as it is today)

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2018, 10:54:03 pm »
Understood.

So... isn't it much easier and more understandable for both modder and the player to not let the infiltration battleship land at all?
(same as it is today)
More understandable? I didn't think so. I assumed destroying the UFO in ANY way would trigger the interruptPercetage, and I had to read it very carefully to realize that isn't what happens.

Easier for the modder? Not for me. I'd have to take into account how UFO landing affects your ability to interrupt the mission, and try and figure out a strategy such that the player can achieve the end result (thwarting alien ships = thwarting alien plans) without having the slightest clue how the whole thing works internally.

Easier for the player? I don't think so. In many cases the alien ship has landed by the time you have arrived on site. Plenty of them will take off and land again, in fact that might be the norm rather than the exception. If I were playing your mod and you told me that I will always prevent the alien base from spawning if I shoot down the final battleship (on base or infiltration mission), and I arrive just in time to see it land, I'd expect an immediate ground assault to make the mission fail and prevent the base from spawning. In fact when I was newer to the game, this was indeed what I expected to happen. With inferior interception capabilities, I would be sending transports to intercept every ship on the ground. I didn't understand why they successfully made an alien base when I hadn't allowed a single ship to complete their ground mission.

Online Meridian

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2018, 11:15:16 pm »
Sigh, I just hope you don't start stopping alien research, harvest, abductions, etc.
That would be a real shame...

I will add the feature in the next version.

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 11:17:24 pm »
Thank you.

I've only put a substantial interrupt chance at the end of missions. My mod actually gives research, harvest, and abduction more waves of medium ships so they are more present than before, not less.

Offline Ethereal

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Re: [Suggestion] Completing a ground mission to stop alien mission
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2018, 01:27:06 am »
Sigh, I just hope you don't start stopping alien research, harvest, abductions, etc.
That would be a real shame...

I will add the feature in the next version.

I'll tell you a secret, I'm not going to interrupt even the RETALIATION. Only Infiltration, under which still and a special base will make, with special composition. Well, maybe even interrupt the construction of bases, with a 50% chance. Terror to interrupt don't see the point. Can just shoot down a UFO.
Thank you very much!

Online Meridian

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Re: [DONE] [Suggestion] Completing a landed UFO battle to stop alien mission
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2018, 06:06:38 pm »
Done.

Successful landed UFO battles will also perform the mission interruption check.
(successful = not aborted + at least 1 xcom unit survived)

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: [DONE] [Suggestion] Completing a landed UFO battle to stop alien mission
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2018, 09:10:11 pm »
Thank you!

Spoiler If you're still concerned about resource loss:
High value mission interruption: Just land at the craft, shoot out the power sources and collect the elerium. Collect any weapons/corpses/live aliens you're interested in, and leave. If it's the right kind of mission, you can wait for it to land and do this again. Finally shoot it down and hit up the crash site. Sometimes you get elerium on the crash site, too! If you keep an Avenger or other fast ship nearby, you can shoot it down after it takes off to head for zone 5 (exit).

High value mission completion: Find out which UFOs can interrupt the mission (or assume it's the big ones); when you get one of those, take it on the ground and leave one alien alive as you loot everything you want to take home. Then abort the mission. Sometimes it'll land a second time for you to get more elerium or other stuff.

You can do these things if you really want to maximize your resource gain, but if the modder has done it right, you shouldn't have to ever worry about not having enough ships and aliens to shoot at. In fact I think the original intention of the retaliation mission may have been (at least in part) to prevent the player from having too few ships and aliens when they get good at shooting down everything. Perhaps in their head they were picturing having mission interruption, but decided there wasn't enough time to put it in later. The end result (in the original game) is that when you shoot down more alien ships, it actually increases their presence. If you're really good at it, you'll note that your hyper-wave decoder mostly just detects retaliation missions.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 09:13:40 pm by The Reaver of Darkness »