Author Topic: a different shotgun behavior  (Read 4631 times)

Offline yrizoud

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a different shotgun behavior
« on: July 12, 2016, 12:01:04 pm »
Just wanted to share some thought on pellet behavior.
With the existing system, target armor is applied on each pellet which hits. As a consequence, shotgun weapons are typically murderous on unarmored targets at short range, and harmless otherwise. For the modder it's extremely difficult to balance, because for example on a 8-pellet shell, one extra point of "power" does 8 more damage if the target is vulnerable.

I'm thinking of an alternative damage model which would make it less specialized.
Let's say the POWER indicates the strengh of the full blast. Already, this is closer to what the game shows for firearms and explosives.
Then the game would compute how many pellets hits the same target, and apply damage (POWER-ARMOR) * (hits/pellets).
-> A target hurt by all pellets would take damage identical as a non-pellet weapon (power - armor)
-> Half hits means half damage, 1/4 hits means 1/4 damage. This is intuitive
-> Weapons with many pellets become possible. Many pellets equalize the damage distribution - you can count less on doing maximum damage, but "something" should hit.

I know this change would "break" all exisiting mods which rely on the existing pellet model, so I don't expect it to replace it ever, but I've been thinking about it for a long time, I thought the idea was worth sharing.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2016, 06:47:13 pm »
Sorry, but if I understand your idea correctly, this would make buckshot weird.
The entire point of ammo with pellets is that it is good against unarmoured targets and useless against armour. That's how it works in real life, why would the engine change it? What would you like to simulate?
As a modder, I can't understand what's so hard about balancing this. It's one more tactical layer, so it's good for you.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2016, 01:27:18 am »
No, you can still balance buckshot to be bad against armor if you want, with the same tools and stats as non-buckshot weapons :
- The power can be comparatively low
- the damage type can be one which is easily reduced by body armor (ex: AP 90%, shot 66%)
- OXCE lets you apply a "armor +N%", which makes it harder to overcome armor
In fact it's much easier to apply such modifiers in your head, as they work just like projectile and AOE damage.

Offline Slaughter

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2016, 08:07:41 am »
This might be the way to go, regarding the resolval of the atrocity of ridiculous short-range shotguns.

Seriously, shotguns have a weird pattern and can't hit shit from distances that should't affect it.

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Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2016, 10:27:46 am »
No, you can still balance buckshot to be bad against armor if you want, with the same tools and stats as non-buckshot weapons :
- The power can be comparatively low
- the damage type can be one which is easily reduced by body armor (ex: AP 90%, shot 66%)
- OXCE lets you apply a "armor +N%", which makes it harder to overcome armor
In fact it's much easier to apply such modifiers in your head, as they work just like projectile and AOE damage.

Yes, you can do all this, I just can't understand why do things the complicated way. I seem to be missing some point, can you elaborate?

This might be the way to go, regarding the resolval of the atrocity of ridiculous short-range shotguns.

Seriously, shotguns have a weird pattern and can't hit shit from distances that should't affect it.

Shotguns in X-Com mods like Piratez or X-Com Files have very short effective range, irrespective of pellets. Because they're shotguns.
But yes, pellets do reduce accuracy at long ranges, because they spread in a cone. How else could it work? But this is not relevant of how damage is calculated per pellet.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2016, 04:33:53 pm »
Modder doesn't necessarily want to include pellets "because they are powerless against any armor". He may want to include them because that's what the actual weapon is (Doom shotgun), or because he wants the effect that over distance, the random spread is supposed to help the shooter  "always hits, even if his aim is never bull's eye". (a ranged weapon for non-sharpshooters)
At the moment, the number of pellets is irrevocably linked to armor effectiveness (armor +600% for 7-gauge, +1100% if 12-gauge), and this seriously limits where you can fit pellet weapons in any mod/game balance.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2016, 08:02:55 pm »
Yeah, after some deliberation I think both mechanics would be useful, but for different classes of weapons.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2016, 02:38:23 pm »
The only gripe with current shotguns I have is that the spread pattern is weird - no shotgun-like grouping, just random spread. All other problems you've mentioned can be adressed by careful balancing of armor penetration and other variables within OXCE vs. the number of pellets a weapon fires.

I'd find your mechanics useful, but definitely NOT for shotguns - it better fits a penetrating, beam-type weapon (a beam of particles that destroys everything in its path, until it's spent, akin to the autofire but making sure there is only minor deviation w/o neccessitating 200% accuracy).

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2016, 03:00:07 pm »
Would it be feasible to change shotgun behavior to make the pellets' trajectories depend on two factors such as the normal firing accuracy plus a per-weapon defined spread?  I imagine the calculation being something like getting a 'base' trajectory as if firing a single projectile based on firing accuracy, and then each pellet deviates from that trajectory based on the weapon's spread parameter.  Behavior could then be tuned from a sawed-off-type shotgun where pellets go in a wide arc, somewhat like current behavior with low accuracy, up to hitting all pellets in a single tile at medium ranges, much more like a real-life shotgun.

Offline Meridian

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2016, 03:12:01 pm »
yes, it's feasible

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2016, 03:22:10 pm »
If it was done, would it be better to do it by weapon or by ammo? What do you think?

Offline Starving Poet

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2016, 03:43:29 pm »
I would vote for ammo - the current implementation does have its uses since the 'first' projectile is most likely to hit.  I use it for frangible-type long range weapons.  Then you could have  your proposed buckshot / birdshot balance, and finally slugs.   It would also allow for backwards compatibility.

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2016, 04:22:55 pm »
Since slugs don't have multiple pellets, it shouldn't use the pellet-spread parameter at all; my thought would be that the calculations for shotgun spread would only be used if an ammunition type has multiple pellets, and have the weapon define the spread.

Offline HelmetHair

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2016, 01:12:12 am »

If it was done, would it be better to do it by weapon or by ammo? What do you think?

Definitely by ammo. This would allow for some GREAT alterations that would be a real blast... Such as #4 Buck vs. 00.

#4 Buck 2 3/4" shell generally has 27 pellets @.24 caliber.

00 Buck 2 3/4" shell generally has 9 pellets @.33 caliber.

Also, the spread is terrible on shotguns in X-com. Like ABSOLUTELY USELESS at anything other than point blank and also makes enemies armed with shotguns a joke. Right now I don't even sweat a cultist with a 12 gauge at anything more than about 10 tiles. Because they can't hit shit, or they wing someone with 1 pellet which doesn't really hurt/ kill an Agent.

I mean seriously.... the rule of thumb is a about an inch of spread in a yard; which is being REALLY generous. It's more like half that in most cases. So even, if we were to reduce the spread to something we as gamers can find usable and that tips its hat to shotgun behavior of video games I'd be stoked.

I've also looked at the calculation on how accuracy for a shotgun works and as far as I can tell the first "pellet" and last pellet share the same accuracy...But, I could be wrong....Someone correct me?

Also, spread as defined by weapon would be sweet, because that would mean that even though we have 2 guns that mutual ammo, they have different characteristics when fired through said gun.  So, like the the spread on the super short break action vs the 30" barrel goose-gun would be completely different despite using the same ammo.

I would vote for ammo - the current implementation does have its uses since the 'first' projectile is most likely to hit.  I use it for frangible-type long range weapons.  Then you could have  your proposed buckshot / birdshot balance, and finally slugs.   It would also allow for backwards compatibility.

Please no birdshot...oh please no.... Unless we could have breaching charges that REALLY fucked up doors; I'd be down for that.


Offline Star_Treasure

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Re: a different shotgun behavior
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2016, 08:54:02 am »
I was under the impression that shotgun spread was determined by the shotgun's choke. With sawed offs having the widest spread because the choke is removed.

Then again, ammo should be able to effect it, because slugs or sabot rounds should have zero spread.