Author Topic: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse  (Read 570317 times)

Offline LuigiWhatif

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3660 on: June 19, 2020, 04:13:34 am »
Thank you for the answer.  Though in my defense the text never directly mentions hybrids and only uses the broad term "humanity."

Offline Mrvex

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3661 on: June 28, 2020, 08:17:57 pm »
Can the ammo weight for taser cannon be reduced by half atleast ? Like its 22 for 2 shot magazine and that is abit ludicrous. Look i guess the batteries to power this thing aint gona be light as a feather but...

Lets compare it to the standard Taser
Weight 5
Max range 5
Clip size 2
Clip weight 2 (So a loaded taser has 7 weight points)
44 electric damage.

Taser Cannon
Weight - 16
Max range - 10
Clip size - 2
Clip weight - 22 (So a loaded Taser Cannon alone weights 38 points, which is more than loaded multi rocket launcher (8 rockets) which stands at 32)
65 electric damage.

Since the statistic jump isnt anything ground breaking, damage boost isnt even double the default and range is doubled. Shouldnt battery pack weight only like 2.5x - 2.7x as much as the standard tazer clip ?

It really makes it quite unattractive option since only with powerarmour or synthsuits you can carry it, with already heavy armours like Tritanium Suit you wont have room for anything else and at the point where you will be running around in power armours and synthsuits you can simply grab the electric prod and smack them for 72 electric stun points or throw barrages of stun grenades... or snipe them with tranq darts.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3662 on: June 28, 2020, 08:35:07 pm »
I'd agree with this. As far as I can tell - at least from my latest playthrough - is that the Taser Cannon is a pretty niche weapon given the stats and when it (usually) becomes available. The only early game mission I could have imagined using it is against Black Lotus - specifically to stun the Avatar when it's flying. But I was able to bring her down with Tasers just fine, so I didn't actually need the cannon. Everything else is probably better served by lighter weapons that can carry more ammunition or by melee (Stun rod etc.). But maybe I'm missing something here.

Offline Mrvex

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3663 on: June 28, 2020, 08:49:58 pm »
I'd agree with this. As far as I can tell - at least from my latest playthrough - is that the Taser Cannon is a pretty niche weapon given the stats and when it (usually) becomes available. The only early game mission I could have imagined using it is against Black Lotus - specifically to stun the Avatar when it's flying. But I was able to bring her down with Tasers just fine, so I didn't actually need the cannon. Everything else is probably better served by lighter weapons that can carry more ammunition or by melee (Stun rod etc.). But maybe I'm missing something here.

When i was studying its stats in UFOpedia it seems that Taser cannon has splash damage ? Well not sure when was the last time i was trying to capture 6 dudes at once, if its flying, i'll swat it out with baton shotgun shells, if its crap at melee (iek sectoids) then i will bash their skull in. If its dangerous up close, then i will snipe it with tranq darts and baton shells. If i need one guy out of group of 5, i'll just stun the one i need and mow down the rest with auto fire. Its not like you even need to capture bulk enemies, most of the time need you need one specific enemy which is usually visually disctinct from his mates and doesnt go in mobs of 5 or more. And selling them for pocket change isnt worth the risk of them waking up and shooting you in the back, i'll rather stun one, handcuff him (even multiple times, just to be sure) and then start killing others. They will surrender eventually so its not like i wont have any other captures aside from my VIP.

Another bonus for other weapons is that you can usually carry something else. Stun Rod can be in your inventory while your dude has assault rifle in his hand and can switch at any time. Baton shells can be quickly ejected and real buckshots can be loaded in when its time to kill. If you have taser cannon, what else you can bring ? So only the top % strenght agents can carry atleast a pistol ?.



Offline Bobit

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3664 on: June 29, 2020, 02:57:15 am »
No I disagree, the Taser Cannon is the only good long-range early game stun gun. Long-range stun is very valuable in the early game as the sole goal of many missions is to capture the commander. It's niche, but that's okay, it would not be fun as a widespread weapon.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3665 on: June 29, 2020, 01:27:13 pm »
Why would I go with an extremly heavy weapon that can only fire twice (with each shot costing 40% TUs) and risk reaction fire when I can carry multiple flashbangs and a taser/stun rod instead? I simply don't see the rational behind the weapon the way it's currently implemented.

Offline TheCurse

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3666 on: June 29, 2020, 06:31:07 pm »
Why would I go with an extremly heavy weapon that can only fire twice (with each shot costing 40% TUs) and risk reaction fire when I can carry multiple flashbangs and a taser/stun rod instead? I simply don't see the rational behind the weapon the way it's currently implemented.
I agree. Sometimes you need ranged stun, if enemy stats are too high, but that thing is just too cumbersome, even compared to the smaller taser.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3667 on: June 30, 2020, 11:35:18 am »
Can the ammo weight for taser cannon be reduced by half atleast ?

How, by magic? These are the 1990's, not 2077.

Like its 22 for 2 shot magazine and that is abit ludicrous.

> Chief Engineer's face when

Look i guess the batteries to power this thing aint gona be light as a feather but...

Lets compare it to the standard Taser
Weight 5
Max range 5
Clip size 2
Clip weight 2 (So a loaded taser has 7 weight points)
44 electric damage.

Taser Cannon
Weight - 16
Max range - 10
Clip size - 2
Clip weight - 22 (So a loaded Taser Cannon alone weights 38 points, which is more than loaded multi rocket launcher (8 rockets) which stands at 32)
65 electric damage.

Since the statistic jump isnt anything ground breaking, damage boost isnt even double the default and range is doubled. Shouldnt battery pack weight only like 2.5x - 2.7x as much as the standard tazer clip ?

Yes, of course it's inefficient as hell. It's a taser using perfectly mundane tech. We work with what we have!

It really makes it quite unattractive option since only with powerarmour or synthsuits you can carry it

Nah, it's just not true.

with already heavy armours like Tritanium Suit you wont have room for anything else

Why on Earth told you to use these things together? Why not wear a jumpsuit?

and at the point where you will be running around in power armours and synthsuits you can simply grab the electric prod and smack them for 72 electric stun points or throw barrages of stun grenades... or snipe them with tranq darts.

That much is trivial, yes.

Well, specialist equipment is specialist. If it doesn't fit your squad profile, use something else. The same can be said about land mines, skulljacks, and other such stuff. It's for people who play like this.


Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3668 on: June 30, 2020, 02:46:17 pm »
Solarius, with all due respect, but how do you imagine this "mundane tech" is supposed to work? Are we loading car batteries into that cannon? As far as I am aware tasers usually work by transforming a low-voltage source (e.g. 1.5V / AA batteries) into a high-voltage/low-amp current. What do you attribute that additional weight to (if this supposed to be related or based on anything in reality)?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3669 on: June 30, 2020, 08:35:18 pm »
Solarius, with all due respect, but how do you imagine this "mundane tech" is supposed to work? Are we loading car batteries into that cannon?

OK, not that mundane... :)

As far as I am aware tasers usually work by transforming a low-voltage source (e.g. 1.5V / AA batteries) into a high-voltage/low-amp current. What do you attribute that additional weight to (if this supposed to be related or based on anything in reality)?

Just energy storage. This is pretty much a modified car battery.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3670 on: June 30, 2020, 10:15:51 pm »
Just energy storage. This is pretty much a modified car battery.

Yes but also no

A typical AA battery has a capacity of 2000 mAh. A car battery has ~100000 mAh (100 Ah).

The AA-battery at 1.5 V has about 3 Watt hours. The car battery at 12 V has 1.2 kilo-watt hours.

That's 600 watt hours per shot. Let's be generous and assume that energy is dumped into the target in one second. That equates to 720000 Joule or 720 KJ. The kinetic energy of a typical car moving at 60 mph/100kmh is about 500 KJ.

Solarius, what happens when the human body is hit by a car moving at 100 km/h? Do you think that whatever human-sized target hit by that weapon is going to answer any questions in the forseeable future?

;)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 10:19:29 pm by krautbernd »

Offline Nalca

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3671 on: July 01, 2020, 01:32:14 am »
How about using an elerium battery ?
Because, being able to make a plasma canon and not a light taser canon look really lame.

Offline TheCurse

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3672 on: July 01, 2020, 01:34:41 am »
those shots better be kinda more powerful then... >_>
for comparison (additionally), a 50cal bullet carries 15-20kj at muzzle exit.
so that tazer is like 36 HMG or barret shots.
thats in the "punctures UFO hulls" category, on the far side...
400kj is like 1kg of TNT, so kinda highEx. but taser is concentrated in one tiny shot...


Offline Mathel

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3673 on: July 01, 2020, 09:40:44 am »
Yes but also no

A typical AA battery has a capacity of 2000 mAh. A car battery has ~100000 mAh (100 Ah).

The AA-battery at 1.5 V has about 3 Watt hours. The car battery at 12 V has 1.2 kilo-watt hours.

That's 600 watt hours per shot. Let's be generous and assume that energy is dumped into the target in one second. That equates to 720000 Joule or 720 KJ. The kinetic energy of a typical car moving at 60 mph/100kmh is about 500 KJ.

Solarius, what happens when the human body is hit by a car moving at 100 km/h? Do you think that whatever human-sized target hit by that weapon is going to answer any questions in the forseeable future?

;)

There is another issue with car batteries (and any other chemical batteries). You can't just dump all that energy at once, even if you short circuit them. The chemical reaction needs time to happen. You would actually need capacitors for that. And the problem with capacitors is, that they can't store a lot of energy.

Perhaps the 'clip' is actually a smaller chemical battery, custom made by X-Com, and a massive bank of capacitors.
The battery could store more energy than you need to do two shots, but the two shots are all that fits into the capacitors, and they would need too long to recharge. The battery would then be there just to keep them topped off.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.4: Signs of Apocalypse
« Reply #3674 on: July 01, 2020, 11:19:46 am »
Yes but also no

A typical AA battery has a capacity of 2000 mAh. A car battery has ~100000 mAh (100 Ah).

The AA-battery at 1.5 V has about 3 Watt hours. The car battery at 12 V has 1.2 kilo-watt hours.

That's 600 watt hours per shot. Let's be generous and assume that energy is dumped into the target in one second. That equates to 720000 Joule or 720 KJ. The kinetic energy of a typical car moving at 60 mph/100kmh is about 500 KJ.

Solarius, what happens when the human body is hit by a car moving at 100 km/h? Do you think that whatever human-sized target hit by that weapon is going to answer any questions in the forseeable future?

;)

I assume I haven't calculated the calculations, but in fact the entire concept is rather sci-fi, so I assume that the method to project the discharge over such long distances somehow requires large amounts of energy. No, I don't know why this doesn't work like a normal lightning, which is why we have a goddamn not-tony-Stark to figure it out for us. :)

How about using an elerium battery ?
Because, being able to make a plasma canon and not a light taser canon look really lame.

Yes, an E-115 battery could be much lighter and smaller, but produce the same effect. Good point.

(Not sure how balanced they would be against other ranged stun weapons, though...)

There is another issue with car batteries (and any other chemical batteries). You can't just dump all that energy at once, even if you short circuit them. The chemical reaction needs time to happen. You would actually need capacitors for that. And the problem with capacitors is, that they can't store a lot of energy.

Yeah, that's true as well. Again, I'll dump it on "no-Stark makes it work with high tech". I don't want anything actually silly, but I don't think we should have the exact explanation of every technical detail, as long as it doesn't seem illogical.

Perhaps the 'clip' is actually a smaller chemical battery, custom made by X-Com, and a massive bank of capacitors.
The battery could store more energy than you need to do two shots, but the two shots are all that fits into the capacitors, and they would need too long to recharge. The battery would then be there just to keep them topped off.

That is a plausible explanation, yes.