Author Topic: Scoped Rifle usability  (Read 1466 times)

Offline Juku121

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Scoped Rifle usability
« on: September 26, 2023, 05:41:47 pm »
...right now I can't see any benefits it could logically have (it's still a hunting rifle, uses the same ammo).
Depends on what this 'Hunting Rifle' is supposed to be patterned off of. The more popular hunting calibers (for large and medium game, which I suppose cultists qualify as :D ) are something like .30+ or .270+, which are very comparable to the .308 sniper rifle, if not exactly the same. A hunting rifle is actually more likely to be accurate and have a more powerful cartridge. Military guns as a rule are not more powerful, they are more resilient to bad luck, bad weather, bad environment, and Jimmy Trooper, who got dropped on his head as a kid.

I would guess it's something more like a .270 and not quite a .30 caliber?

In any case, since it's scoped, it could get all the goodies other sniper rifles have, like power scaling off FA and accuracy scaling off FA^2. Whether it should, IDK.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2023, 06:00:26 pm »
Depends on what this 'Hunting Rifle' is supposed to be patterned off of. (...)

I would guess it's something more like a .270 and not quite a .30 caliber?

In X-Com terms, it's calibre 33. 8)

In any case, since it's scoped, it could get all the goodies other sniper rifles have, like power scaling off FA and accuracy scaling off FA^2. Whether it should, IDK.

It would require different ammo anyway, and I'd like to keep the same clip.

Offline psavola

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2023, 06:31:19 pm »
It can't be available earlier, because its entire point is to give the player a reward for researching Advanced Optics. Making it more valuable is possible, but right now I can't see any benefits it could logically have (it's still a hunting rifle, uses the same ammo).

Instead of scoped hunting rifle - or in addition to this - would it be feasible to have an advanced optic for the actual sniper rifles?

Depending on what's possible with OXCE, one could either go for
a) an additional advanced optic to be added to existing sniper rifles (improving the aim, for example) (not sure this is easily doable with OXCE), or
b) an advanced manufacturable sniper rifle with advanced optics, which would be an improvement over purchaseable sniper rifles; this or these could use the same vanilla clips as their purchaseable counterpart. (But not tactical sniper rifle, it sucks if you actually want to move as well and use a snap shot.)

Offline Juku121

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2023, 07:02:59 pm »
In X-Com terms, it's calibre 33.
Depending on your preferred measurement, a 33 caliber is either something like this



or this



;D :P



More seriously, XCF does have both 5.56 and .308 ammo and most game rifles fall somewhere around that range.

So, what kind of a hunting rifle is it, that is, what do you hunt with it? I guess elephants are out, but is it rabbits, coyotes, deer, boars/hogs, moose/elk, what? That governs what its actual performance should look like. The description just says it's not very powerful compared to military guns, but those have quite a bit of variance, from ~5mm to ~13mm.

It would require different ammo anyway, and I'd like to keep the same clip.
Er, damage is indeed a property of ammo, but accuracy scaling isn't. We already have exactly this kind of distinction with the Mosin and the BA rifle, one being scoped and the other not.


an additional advanced optic to be added to existing sniper rifles (improving the aim, for example) (not sure this is easily doable with OXCE)
It's possible, but not easily, and hell on the modder. :'( Arsenal Additions does have a whole bunch of weapons like this, like a scoped Magnum, a Magnum with a bipod, a Magnum with both, one with neither, etc. It's Fallout 2 all over again.

But not tactical sniper rifle, it sucks if you actually want to move as well and use a snap shot.
It's supposed to suck that way. The problem is rather that it isn't commensurately better at doing aimed shots, either.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2023, 07:36:13 pm by Juku121 »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2023, 08:58:41 pm »
a) an additional advanced optic to be added to existing sniper rifles (improving the aim, for example) (not sure this is easily doable with OXCE)

Only as a manufacturing project (sniper rifle + scope -> better sniper rifle), so it's not really practical.

b) an advanced manufacturable sniper rifle with advanced optics, which would be an improvement over purchaseable sniper rifles; this or these could use the same vanilla clips as their purchaseable counterpart. (But not tactical sniper rifle, it sucks if you actually want to move as well and use a snap shot.)

Doable, but I'd rather not mess up the sniper rifle tree just for a scope.

So, what kind of a hunting rifle is it, that is, what do you hunt with it? I guess elephants are out, but is it rabbits, coyotes, deer, boars/hogs, moose/elk, what? That governs what its actual performance should look like. The description just says it's not very powerful compared to military guns, but those have quite a bit of variance, from ~5mm to ~13mm.

Well, it hits less hard than an assault rifle, so I would say... Doe? Emus?

Er, damage is indeed a property of ammo, but accuracy scaling isn't. We already have exactly this kind of distinction with the Mosin and the BA rifle, one being scoped and the other not.

Yes, of course. But I'm not sure how to use this to make this weapon better.

Offline unarmed drifter

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2023, 09:26:28 pm »
Quote from: Solarius Scorch
Well, it hits less hard than an assault rifle, so I would say... Doe? Emus?

hunting rifle has 50 - 200 damage spread, which makes it one of the best weapons for rookies in the early game (becaus it actually kills stuff)

Offline Juku121

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2023, 10:34:01 pm »
Only as a manufacturing project (sniper rifle + scope -> better sniper rifle), so it's not really practical.
Well, one scope wouldn't be too bad. But then people start wanting bipods, another scope, cheek welds... This gets out of control fast.

Well, it hits less hard than an assault rifle, so I would say... Doe? Emus?
Eh, 5.56x45 is probably the most common NATO assault rifle round, and it's illegal to hunt deer with it or its civilian counterpart in some places (and not because it's too 'military', rather because it's too weak for deer).

This looks more like some intermediate, 6-7mm cartridge.

Yes, of course. But I'm not sure how to use this to make this weapon better.
Not sure it needs changing, or to become better, but you can certainly give it the same FA^2 scaling and perhaps close range penalties as proper sniper rifles. So it'd be a sidegrade of the hunting rifle, better at very long range and worse with inaccurate agents or in a shotgun fight.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2023, 02:09:30 pm »
Well, one scope wouldn't be too bad. But then people start wanting bipods, another scope, cheek welds... This gets out of control fast.

Yeah, that's one thing, but there are also like 10 sniper rifles in the game, and each one deserves a "better" scope.

Not sure it needs changing, or to become better, but you can certainly give it the same FA^2 scaling and perhaps close range penalties as proper sniper rifles. So it'd be a sidegrade of the hunting rifle, better at very long range and worse with inaccurate agents or in a shotgun fight.

Sure, I can do that. But good agents will usually land a hit anyway...

Offline Juku121

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2023, 05:02:53 pm »
Aren't good agents kinda in a short supply at that stage of the game?

Anyway, my experience is that the FA^2 guns are mostly for shooting beyond vision range or through smoke, where pure stats won't guarantee a hit.

So having it be "baby's first sniper" doesn't seem too bad an idea.

Offline psavola

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2023, 05:41:53 pm »
So having it be "baby's first sniper" doesn't seem too bad an idea.

By the time you could get scoped hunting rifle, it's already obsolete no matter if you add FA^2 or not. You have BO sniper file, .308 cal, etc., which are far superior, also damage-wise, and don't require similar research or manufacturing. It's a weird curiousity and I suppose it's in just because SS wanted to draw the sprite :-). Something else needs to change for it be of any use.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2023, 06:13:02 pm »
Well, I've never played with recent enough XCF to get it, but indeed it'd need to come down on the totem pole to be of use. Perhaps just replace a fraction, 1/3 or 1/4 or so, of existing hunting rifles with scoped versions? Or perhaps only some of those found on actual hunters or these survivalist fellows? So you'd get access to them pretty fast, but not replacements nor quantity until whenever it comes online now.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2023, 12:26:21 am »
Well like I said before, it can't be moved any earlier, since it's tied to Advanced Optics. And Advanced Optics needs advanced, well, optical solutions to build upon (namely some NV-capable outfits, because what else).

I don't think it should be findable either, or at least not as easily as taking it from a random huntsman (even if the chances are only 10%). Besides, it would promote stealing from civilians, and we don't do that here. ...Right? Right?

Sorry if it feels like I'm shooting down all ideas, but this is exactly why it's difficult. :(

Offline Alex_D

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2023, 01:12:17 am »
It's complicated. One could argue scoped rifles cartridge needs calibration, then everything ballistic (piercing damage) also needs calibration. Every single gun.

Fortunately, most of the early guns in XCF are based on real life counterparts. So some data exists regarding energy delivered per cartridge type, dispersion for the guns, effective range, etc.
Unfortunately, the game itself has some silly limitations, primarily actual tile ranges, TUs, etc. The former is if a tile is say 2 m (generous values), then most maps are 6x10x2 = 120 m wide. Pistols effective ranges are 50 m, useful ranges are like 25 m. Shotguns are a bit less, and any rifle ought to go across any map.

Then there is the always-revisited issue of TU usage per shot. What really is a turn? Time-wise it's something probably between 10 to 30 seconds, based solely on walking speed of one tile is usually 4 TUs. But then what is the rationale of shots being a % of a soldier available TUs versus a fixed number? So many questions on endless debates.  :)

So, it's a lot of work. I don't think Solarius wants to do it (again, probably)  :P

Offline Juku121

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2023, 01:50:13 am »
Well, what makes a run-of-the-mill scoped hunting rifle tied to advanced optics? It should be the most accessible precision rifle, ever, certainly more common than an old Mosin or anything military, experimental or high-tech. Most hunting rifles have scopes, anyway.

I mean, the Asuka seems very much the right thing for Advanced Optics. BO Auto-Sniper, too, perhaps. But a hunting rifle that lacks most of the bells and whistles of an actual sniper gun?


If it's not accessible noticeably earlier than the .308, it's all just a trap for new players. Hunters seem like a natural source for such items. I mean, I can also see EXALT wielding these, since rich Americans and hunting for leisure do go together. Not sure about anyone else, though.



Besides, it would promote stealing from civilians, and we don't do that here.
Speak for yourself. Office lady, this is the special U.N. police, hand over the mace can, or else! 8)



The game design can be left alone, unless someone wants to make a complete overhaul. I've toyed with the idea of making firearms flat-TU and melee weapons percentage-based, myself. A gun fires so much faster than a human can move even one finger, so cycling the rounds is not going to be an obstacle unless you're one of the gunslinger wizards who empties a gun in less than a second with aimed-ish shots. A melee weapon on the other hand has inertia that won't be fully overcome no matter how strong you are (assuming you're still somewhat human-shaped and of similar consistency). But it's so much work to redesign everything I've always backed off shortly after having these thoughts.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2023, 01:56:13 am by Juku121 »

Offline psavola

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Re: Scoped Rifle usability
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2023, 07:25:57 am »
Hunting rifle is 125% accuracy, 70% TU with aimed shot, 72% and 33% with snap shot. Scoped has 125% accuracy, 72 % TU with aimed, 80% accuracy and 33% TU with snap shot. So scoped hunting rifle is actually even worse than the regular one with aimed shot (it's a bit slower), and the improvement of accuracy of snap shot does not really offset this. (Btw, both are classified as 'Rifles' instead of 'Sniper rifles'.)

For me the rifle/sniper path has been from hunting rifles to bolt action or mosin rifle as soon as possible (when you have promo I) and then BO sniper rifle .308 or some such (when you get promo II). I doubt you could get advanced optics researched before Promo II even if made sense to do so (it doesn't, because you want to prioritize Promo II and other more important things).

While Promo I Bolt action has 110 % aimed, 70 % TU, Mosin has 110 * 0.01*(FA^2 + 0.5*BRV), 80 % TU which means the Mosin is already excellent in the right hands with high FA (but at this point of the game, FA is not necessarily maxed yet). Promo II BO sniper rifle already has 150 % + 0.01*FA^2 accuracy.

For scoped hunting rifle to have any niche use at all, it should provide some benefits especially for those agents, who don't yet have high enough FA to use the actual sniper rifles that have 0.01*FA^2. And it should be significantly better than hunting rifle (currently only the snap shot is better). If the scoped hunting rifle had accuracy in 150 % range with aimed and 100 % with snap shot, it could possibly be a viable choice for some agents even late Promo I or early Promo II. Not sure if I'd still bother with it, because the research requirements are so expensive (especially bio-exo suit).